Less loft, more spin on short pitch shots

[the_coach]

It was a typo. I hope it hasn't detracted from the discussion.

Thanks for all the replies. One thing that surprises me is the remark by the_coach that the technique is quite high tarrif and for better players.

The impression is given (perhaps in the crossfield vid, rather than the 50 yd pitch one that I linked to), that the low AOA/low loft option would simplify the pitch and provide more margin for error.

d.

two kinda different & separate type of shot techniques that sound similar, but really are a little ways different.

generally most good chippers/pitchers of the ball (unless lie or needing fast height on the shot require some degree of steepness) are folks who deliver the club head with a shallower AoA on a pretty neutral path, & also use fairly normal small degree of shaft lean & contact point at center face sweet spot. (generally folks who are normally a ways steeper & chop on normal chips & pitches & have a not so neutral paths usually experience a fair bunch of heavy & thin strikes & others.)

with a more 'normal' shorter distance chip/pitch generally to provide the biggest margin of error you would tend to take a lower lofted club to start with & deliver a fairly 'normalized' dynamic loft so the shot launches to an expected normal launch angle, reaches normal peak height so runs out, a shorter shot chip/pitch with say a PW may travel in the maybes 60:40, carry:roll ratio, say with the same distance shot say an 8i that ratio would be more 40:60, 30:70 - just approximations all depends on ball position, shaft lean etc - but in these smaller distance shots you're not really looking for a controlled lower launch with higher spin, you're pretty much presenting the 'normal' loft to both of these shots the different clubs would provide.

unless terrain dictates otherwise that's why the biggest margin for error is provided by using the club that provides the least carry & longest roll out. & why many not so trustful of technique will reach for the putter as often as they can - shallower AoA less loft on the face to help provide a better chance of the least miss-contact.

so whether normal chip/pitch technique (or putter) there's no extra complications of reducing dynamic loft a bunch or deliberately trying to contact the ball lower on the face.

the higher tariff higher skill level shot (in my opinion) I was describing is the one you'll see on Tour from maybes 50, 60, 70, 80 etc when you're not using the 'normalized' launch angle, peak height, spin rate your LW,SW,PW would provide. which seemed to be the original shot you were speaking to & wondering about.

through the technique described in the former post, the different club face ball contact point, dynamic loft, LA etc, needed to bring vertical gear effect to produce that shot that flies much lower then checks up quickly around 2nd hop & stops.

so say using a 56º to hit a 50 yard or so lower shot in requires dynamic loft presented at around 40º to get the lower launch angle plus the spin loft so the higher spin rate (numbers from PGA Tour research) with say 10º of forwards leaning shaft - math enthusiasts will see there's a discrepancy in the math there - some 6º - this is where the point of contact on the face is real important - hit that shot with those numbers at normal sweet spot center & the ball will fly too high, & too far, won't check up as quick.

but provide those numbers & control the strike on horizontal center but lower on the face of vertical center & because of vertical gear effect you get the extra 6º or so 'down' through the way the face reacts through the strike along with the shallower AoA, so a bunch more friction & spin, lower trajectory & stop.

to me anyways through my own learned experience & observation this all requires a fair degree of path, AoA, shaft lean & face control etc, so as not to mostly get all kinds of miss-contacts & unwanted shot outcomes - have a try & see how you go.

 

[Region3]

I'd guess that the angle of attack and dynamic loft being closer together (than with a steep swing with a lob wedge) allows friction to work better and gets the ball rolling up the face rather than sliding up it.

Having said that, on first read it does appear very counter intuitive.
How unlike physics

 

[pendodave]

thanks the_coach

Really useful as ever. Having re-watched the two vids, I think you are spot on.

Just for fun, I'll try a few of those longer ones on the practice area. Curiosity keeps you young, and I only play for fun...

 

[Region3]

I'm very hesitant to disagree with the_coach, but you don't get gear effect with irons, or if you do it's tiny.

Gear effect happens on an off center hit with a wood because the face wants to rotate around the centre of gravity. The further away the COG is from the face, the larger the radius of the circle it wants to turn on, therefore more sideways movement of the face is created imparting spin on the ball.

With an iron the face twists almost on the spot, not creating any sideways movement to impart extra spin on the ball.


Deliberatey hitting low on the face makes sense though as it allows you to hit the ball with more club head speed without adding much more ball speed.

 

[the_coach]

I'm very hesitant to disagree with the_coach, but you don't get gear effect with irons, or if you do it's tiny.

Gear effect happens on an off center hit with a wood because the face wants to rotate around the centre of gravity. The further away the COG is from the face, the larger the radius of the circle it wants to turn on, therefore more sideways movement of the face is created imparting spin on the ball.

With an iron the face twists almost on the spot, not creating any sideways movement to impart extra spin on the ball.


Deliberatey hitting low on the face makes sense though as it allows you to hit the ball with more club head speed without adding much more ball speed.

gear effect works across the horizontal & vertical axis of a club face, iron or metal, driver, you get vertical & horizontal gear effect, that's why there is less spin on a ball struck higher on the face (metal or wood) the more static loft a club has the more loft is presented at strike the less horizontal gear effect will have. the larger the face area the more opportunity for horizontal gear effect to influence strike.
the gear effect that is being brought into effect in this type of low spinning wedge is not horizontal but vertical.
hit a wedge or iron of the top half of the face it will fly pretty dead, height but no real distance, no real friction so comes of with a bunch less spin.

conversely use the opposite lower vertical part of the face (but as said earlier still a horizontal center strike - so no horizontal gear effect or face twisting) & you get the benefit of vertical gear effect which creates more friction so combined with the dynamic loft presented provides the launch angle & spin loft, & a bunch more spin rate so you can produce the shot you see on the Tour & elite am comps from around 50, 60, 70, 80 yards when the ball is brought in a deal lower but with a bunch of spin that hops then checks up.

contact this type of specialist wedge shot at horizontal center but vertically lower than true sweet spot does (so the research so far has shown) create more 'down' through the strike & the ball launches at a lower launch angle than the dynamic loft through AoA alone & forwards leaning shaft would suggest whilst also providing a higher spin rate, it also does this at a lower smash factor so does produce a little ways less ball speed than if the strike was a 'true sweet spot' strike.

all the figures I've seen so far would seem to support this, happy to look at others that might show something different again is going on.

 

[MadAdey]

At times I try to stay away from the scientific side of hitting the ball as I do not like too many thoughts in my head when playing. But one thing I have noticed is that most excellent short game pkayers use their PW/GW for most of their shots. I watched a short game masterclass on NBC golf channel with Corey Pavin and he was playing everything with his 48* wedge. It didn't matter if it was a bump and run, a shot that he needed to stop quickly or a 50* pitch. He just knew how to play different shots with that club.

I have been practising playing everything with my 50* wedge and the results have been fantastic. I just know the club and how it feels in my hands and can play most shots with it now, with confidence. Even when there is not much green to play with I can get enough spin on it to make it check up.

i think there is something to this idea of less loft for more spin idea, as I have found out myself.

 

[the_coach]

[video=youtube_share;AuOiDxX3-X0]http://youtu.be/AuOiDxX3-X0[/video]

 

[the_coach]

[video=youtube_share;DwYufZUF5xc]http://youtu.be/DwYufZUF5xc[/video]

 

[garyinderry]

[video=youtube;yQEBCaCSpyY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQEBCaCSpyY[/video]

 

[3565]

Interesting reading the coach's explanation. It's nuts that you can play the ball that far forward with a slightly open club face and have an in to out path and it draws and spins.
Always fun to try.

 

[Region3]

gear effect works across the horizontal & vertical axis of a club face, iron or metal, driver, you get vertical & horizontal gear effect, that's why there is less spin on a ball struck higher on the face (metal or wood) the more static loft a club has the more loft is presented at strike the less horizontal gear effect will have. the larger the face area the more opportunity for horizontal gear effect to influence strike.
the gear effect that is being brought into effect in this type of low spinning wedge is not horizontal but vertical.
hit a wedge or iron of the top half of the face it will fly pretty dead, height but no real distance, no real friction so comes of with a bunch less spin.

conversely use the opposite lower vertical part of the face (but as said earlier still a horizontal center strike - so no horizontal gear effect or face twisting) & you get the benefit of vertical gear effect which creates more friction so combined with the dynamic loft presented provides the launch angle & spin loft, & a bunch more spin rate so you can produce the shot you see on the Tour & elite am comps from around 50, 60, 70, 80 yards when the ball is brought in a deal lower but with a bunch of spin that hops then checks up.

contact this type of specialist wedge shot at horizontal center but vertically lower than true sweet spot does (so the research so far has shown) create more 'down' through the strike & the ball launches at a lower launch angle than the dynamic loft through AoA alone & forwards leaning shaft would suggest whilst also providing a higher spin rate, it also does this at a lower smash factor so does produce a little ways less ball speed than if the strike was a 'true sweet spot' strike.

all the figures I've seen so far would seem to support this, happy to look at others that might show something different again is going on.

I'm not disagreeing about the resulting effect of hitting a wedge shot high or low on the face, I agree with your descriptions of what will happen to the ball in each case.

What I'm disagreeing with (and I'm happy to agree to disagree) is that gear effect is the cause.

 

[Region3]

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/gearEffect.php

 

[garyinderry]

I'd be very surprised if they weren't 100% sure that the vertical gear effect in taking place on wedge shots low on the face.

Using trackman they can see exactly where the ball is impacting and what numbers it throws out.


The secrets of impact is there in numbers these days. Not just feel and intuition that had so many people trying to move the ball with the old ball flight laws.

 

[Region3]

I'd be very surprised if they weren't 100% sure that the vertical gear effect in taking place on wedge shots low on the face.

Using trackman they can see exactly where the ball is impacting and what numbers it throws out.


The secrets of impact is there in numbers these days. Not just feel and intuition that had so many people trying to move the ball with the old ball flight laws.

I agree with the numbers, just not their explanation of the reason for them.

I'll shut up now

All the math(s) is on the link I posted if anyone wants to prove me wrong.

 

[the_coach]

for me it's not a case of disagreement, just putting forwards what I've found out myself so far through numbers with trackman & what I've studied in & through other folks recent research through their numbers on the subject.

always interested to attempt to gain as much information as possible on the golf motion & the body's movement to produce that motion, & the subsequent shot outcomes.

my take to the 45, 50, 60. 70 yard plus distances with the specific & much lower trajectory high spinning wedge shot that you see often on tour is what I've described as to all the parts of the puzzle that combine to allow a higher spinning shot despite a shallower attack, lower strike point, with a lower dynamic loft & launch angle that produces a narrower angle of spin loft, & that friction produced also combines with vertical gear effect to affect launch angle & spin rate. it being part of the equation that the extra friction & spin can be produced despite a lower ball speed, despite that narrower spin loft angle incidentally not said or implied vge was the only reason.

all work done with good wedge faces & premium balls off good lies.
plus there's been bunch of interesting work done with super slow-mo - phantom camera, that shows how the face & ball react on collision.

usually the faster the ball speed & the wider the spin loft angle the higher the spin rate.
but interestingly play the same shot in terms of length of swing from the same ball position but contact from the geometric wedge sweet spot the launch angle is higher from a similar AoA, the spin loft angle is wider plus the ball speed is higher but the spin rate is a whole bunch less than the shot hit having the other parameters.

but always interested in finding out how something else could combine to produce those differing sets of numbers, so different shot outcomes.

have read the tutelman papers (2009) re - high contact & the vertical gear effect of a high but horizontally center strike, his 'topspin' & 'net topspin' - this though not it seems what the new super slow mo cameras are showing at collision - not topspin but an asymmetric deformation of the golf ball on collision dependent on the face angle both vertically & horizontally so one part of the face can put more pressure/deformation on a part of the ball due to the faces orientation at impact.

& he makes mention that higher up the face with a driver will through vertical gear effect cause a lowering of the spin rate by some numbers has always been true...... however he makes no mention of any influence of vertical gear effect from a horizontally centered but lower than vertical centered strike on the face of a wedge in any of his research that has been published so far to date. so far he doesn't seem to have published on any of the newer research models that so far have emerged during the past 3 years when it seems things have moved on a pace.

would be interesting to see what his (tutelman) up to date research in the matter would throw up, given the increased number of parameters launch monitors now provide measurements for, that they didn't provide in 2008/9, or the images available now from the very much increased frame rate possible from the newer breed of reference slow motion cameras.

 

[garyinderry]

Have you ever caught an iron thin and it spins more then usual on landing. that is this vertical gear effect in action. Happens to me more often than not when I thin one.

 

[SGC001]

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/ballflight/gearEffect.php

Hi region3 vertical gear effect is there in irons, try it; the nearer a thin the better for spin.

It's even there in table tennis and that ball is light.

Edit: oblique contact can also help with spin as can using areas other than the sweetspot as more speed can be used in the swing with less speed relative to spin Vs a square contact being transferred to the ball.

 

[Jimaroid]

Have you ever caught an iron thin and it spins more then usual on landing. that is this vertical gear effect in action. Happens to me more often than not when I thin one.

If it's a genuinely thin shot, where the club's leading edge hits the ball first rather then the flat club face, you'd have a different friction between the club and ball because the contact shape is different (the edge of the club is digging into the ball) so it's a higher coefficient of friction than it would have on the surface. More frictional torque would mean more spin. So I think vertical gear effect is only part of the problem.