Less loft, more spin on short pitch shots

[pendodave]

I watched a youtube vid about short pitches on Crossfield the other day which suggested that a shallow angle of attack and less loft was a useful thing to try when pitching/chipping around the green. All sensible enough stuff. He was co-presenting with some guy I'd never come across before (Andrew Rice), so I looked over at his site to see if he had anything interesting.

Buried in there was a video about pitching which covered some of the earlier stuff, but in more detail. The key elements were :

shallow angle of attach
out-to-in release to promote a draw
use a lower lofted club to promote a lower, more predictable flight but (here's the thing), with more spin.

I was surprised by this, I had always thought that more loft = more spin, but he had a guy on trackman who produced a much spinnier pitch with a 56 than a 60. It wasn't done by sneakily increasing dynamic loft either - this was also lower.

I'd not come across this before (sheltered life and all that), so I thought I'd post it up as food for thought.

The vid is here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg8zIaah05I&list=UUoLFCXQEusbOupxCEG5nGxg

There is also a golfchannel vid with Matt Kuchar in which he advocates this approach : http://www.golfchannel.com/media/playing-lessons-matt-kuchar-short-game-tips/

 

[duncan mackie]

it is fascinating to try and work out the missing cause and effect elements here - I can only conclude that clubhead speed is significantly higher with the latter approach (leading to the increased spin).

the alternative is that he's simply making consistently cleaner contact - possible but unlikely! Looking at the contacts again it certainly appears as if he's getting ground and ball together with his standard out to in pitch.

roll out on the green looks to be the same, if not slightly longer, with the lower trajectory/higher spin shot - supports supposition above that the club head speed is higher.

on the plus side, there's no doubt that this is a more aggressive. positive, approach to such shots - which must be a good thing for most players!

 

[patricks148]

i would imagine you have to be quite aggressive with this type shot, which is going to lead to a fair few thins

Personally i would go with a bump and run shot for this type distance, unless you are a very accomplished player.

 

[pendodave]

The variables are probably the key, but I'm not sure about clubhead speed - after all, carry distance is similar, and if I had taken one club more on a pitch, I would probably swing less rather than more.

I wonder if it is the reduction of sidespin promoting better backspin ? Also, if contact is better, I presume that this is the intention of the shallower AOA, and therefore a deliberate relationship rather than just a 'random' variable in the swing. Maybe the relationship between dynamic loft and AOA produces the spin, and this is optimised with a shallower AOA ?

Sadly, it's just guesswork unless the_coach pops in, as he seems pretty up to speed on these newfangled ideas and measuring devices. It's too soggy this morning to go out and try.

 

[guest100718]

If i play the ball back and hands forward I can hit a low hop and stop chip.

 

[Jimaroid]

It makes perfect sense that at some point - I don't know where - more loft will impart less spin because the the club will not have enough friction on the ball due to a shallowing angle of attack against it. There will be an optimum loft for maximum spin and above or below that will create less spin, but it's not simple to calculate as there are so many variables, loft is just one variable in a complicated set of inputs.

 

[bobmac]

Generally, the harder you swing the more spin you get, although I fail to see how you'd get a draw on a short pitch shot by swinging out to in and why you'd want to

People keep trying to re-invent the wheel and often all it does is confuse people.
The pitch I learned 45 years ago still works today.
KISS

 

[FairwayDodger]

I fail to see how you'd get a draw on a short pitch shot by swinging out to in and why you'd want to

Phew! Bob I'm glad you posted that!

 

[SGC001]

Sometimes your lie might dictate that swing path, sometimes you might want it to spin left and catch a slope to get nearer to a tricky pin.

 

[bobmac]

Sometimes your lie might dictate that swing path, sometimes you might want it to spin left and catch a slope to get nearer to a tricky pin.

While I agree there may be the occasional situation where you may want the ball to bounce one way or the other, but I think in general, the mid to high handicappers should learn the basic technique first.

 

[3565]

Although he is stood open to target he actually swings in to out as Andrew said to do. It actually works it produces a lower shot and you can see it draw even on 50yd shots and stops really quick. I've had a short game lesson that goes against what we've done for years. The set up is different but The important bit is getting the contact on the ball, you need to play it virtually level with your front foot and it feels like your thinning the ball, some you will but if you get it just right the spin is immense. But through the short game lesson and watching the video, I have another shot in my bag.

 

[garyinderry]

Catch it on the bottom groove to get a gear effect to put more spin on the ball and also lower launch.


As far as in to out swing creating more spin it might well spit out those numbers on track man but very difficult to put into practice.
I still find it easier and much more repeatable to come in with a relatively steep aoa and cut the ball to make it spin.

 

[bobmac]

Although he is stood open to target he actually swings in to out as Andrew said to do. It actually works it produces a lower shot and you can see it draw even on 50yd shots and stops really quick. I've had a short game lesson that goes against what we've done for years. The set up is different but The important bit is getting the contact on the ball, you need to play it virtually level with your front foot and it feels like your thinning the ball, some you will but if you get it just right the spin is immense. But through the short game lesson and watching the video, I have another shot in my bag.

Again, no problem with experimenting but did he say swing out to in to get a draw?
(Cant see the vid for some reason)

 

[garyinderry]

It's on the track man youtube channel.

I am one for mucking around but I don't do not unless I want the ball to break left on a green to follow a slope down tothe hole. I don't play it to try and get a couple hundred extra rpms backspin.

 

[apj0524]

Bob he suggests swinging more outwards so I have always taken that to be in to out when I watched it some time ago. I have tried this technique when practicing and find it working for me if I do two things:

1) Ball just back from centre
2) Feel like you swing the club behind you and turn the club face over at the ball like a tennis top spin shot
3) Must have semi decent lie

I find when play shot with these considerations I get the low draw chip that lands and almost stops straight away, but I don't use it all the time because usually there are lower risk shots that I can use

 

[bobmac]

Bob he suggests swinging more outwards so I have always taken that to be in to out when I watched it some time ago.

Good.
Just didn't want people to think they could hit a draw by swinging out to in

 

[the_coach]

the "out to in" in the OP is either a typo, or misunderstanding of what's being said - which is about swing direction being to the outside, slightly rightfield.

so working on getting a shallower AoA with a little ways of an in to out path, but only to tilt the spin axis of the ball to help with the other parameters needed to keep the flight down some whilst maintaining good spin loft angle through dynamic loft, LA, & vertical gear effect to produce the backspin. it's not about producing a pitch draw shot with a high degree of right to left curvature in the flight either.

basically it's about producing the 'numbers' by the strike contact so the face can produce the maximum amount of friction possible, to that you have to start with a good wedge face with good grooves (why the Tour Pro's change them so frequently) plus be using a premium ball plus you have to have a good lie otherwise it's not going to happen fully even with good technique {along with the dynamic loft, LA, spin loft so spinrate etc. most importantly just where on the face the ball is struck, by that you have to produce a centered strike that's low on the face around the 3rd/4th groove area which then brings vertical gear effect into play further maximizing the spin. as ball is struck low on face the face angle tips vertically forwards 'over' the ball & produces more backspin} - hence it's a high degree of skill needed as folks when then try this will experienced a bunch of thins/skulls.

but maybes counter-intuitively it's not about producing a high club head speed to produce maximum speed through extra hand action. because if you did this (go for club head speed) with this kind of part shot, 50, 60, 70, 80 yards you'd just simply always hit the shot a good ways too long even with pretty good contact or produce miss strikes.

but what's originally being spoken about here is a specialty shot that requires a high skill level. no reason not to try in practice but folks would have to have the basic pitching technique stock shots down pretty good, so have good control of a 'hold release' strike pattern, good degree of control of a shallow AoA (around -1º or -2º), the ability to present a pretty square (or very slightly open (half to 1º) to target but closed to path club face angle, & crucially where vertically on the face the ball is contacted as well as it being centered horizontally.

there are a bunch of trackman numbers that through looking at PGA tour averages prove to be an optimum requirement for producing this 'specialist' kind of lower flight 50, 60, 70 etc pitch that has a high spin rate (7500, 8000rpms & over), so the data is there to support that the shot works, how & why.

but folks need to have mastered the basic chip/pitch shots with different clubs to produce shots with an emphasis of either height or roll, or simply 50:50 & have got those distance controls down pretty well first off.

technique that's required is more that the rotation of the upper body & hips transports the arm & club back & through, you have to make sure that hip, chest, shoulders keep rotating through the shot so you'll end up facing a little ways left of target. if you don't continue the 'rotation' the arms & hands will flip through impact which will also force the body to stand up a little ways through strike. hands do nothing much except hold the handle just a softening of the right wrist going back so you get an angle there which is 'held' into the ball.
it's overall a smooth tempo no real "hit" with active wrists/hands through the ball, the right wrist angle is more retained through into the ball & released a little ways 'after'. weight always on the lead leg.

it's one of the shots when the hips & upper body more rotate in tandem, together through the motion to produce the 'rotational flow' through impact as it's not a motion looking to provide 'extra' distance through high speed so it's not lower body then upper body as in a normal golf motion. but the smooth body rotation is the engine that provides what 'speed' is needed.

 

[Jabba]

The pitch I learned 45 years ago still works today.
KISS

You were still learning well into your 40s? Kudos Sir.

 

[JustOne]

Watched the vid..... looks like shanksville to the average golfer

 

[pendodave]

the "out to in" in the OP is either a typo,

It was a typo. I hope it hasn't detracted from the discussion.

Thanks for all the replies. One thing that surprises me is the remark by the_coach that the technique is quite high tarrif and for better players.

The impression is given (perhaps in the crossfield vid, rather than the 50 yd pitch one that I linked to), that the low AOA/low loft option would simplify the pitch and provide more margin for error.

d.