Ladies in Mens Competitions

[barb]

Hi all
Don't you just love these divided debates !!!!!!

AliB, barb - what is the normal difference in gross scores, played off the same tees against the course (ie no handicaps), is it measurable?

I think you would possibly be looking at about a difference of 10-15 strokes gross if played off the white tees (thats based on my play at our club as the white tees are a LONG WAY back.
At our club we don't have any low lady handicappers (no one below 24) I'm a 32 handicapper and always take part in all the club comps, we only have 1 men's only comp and 1 ladies only comp a year and the rest are integrated. I can on occasion out drive some of the blokes and in general they are very supportive of my game. I have only ever won a mixed comp once and came in with a net 69 and the closest bloke was 73.
I do find it helpful for my golf to go out with the guys and you learn so much but I think I would struggle playing off whites, though I do play off yellows on occasion.
because we have only really just started a ladies section in our club all the comps have predomantly been the men taking part and now we have a few ladies playing the men have been and are very supportive of ladies golf even though I'm sure we must p!ss them off at times
I'm all for mixed comps
Barb bring it on

 

[barb]

AliB - do you fancy pairing up and posting a challenge (girls v boys)

 

[billyg]

Yes they should be allowed provided they would be somewhere around the Male handicap limit playing off the mens tees - why not. Same should apply to Juniors who really get the shitty end of the stick but no-one ever mentions it. The kids get ignored at most clubs, can't do this or that and why? Cos they can putt their bloomin socks off, they don't get nervous over a five footer for par, they havent had their souls blackened by years of toiling in the doledrums and they usually walk off the course come what may with a smile on their face. And god forbid that some of that might rub off! If it was 'No Blacks Allowed to tee off before 9am on Sunday' there'd be hell on. Come one come all says I!

Agreed. Were given a golden opportunity to let the kids demonstrate some manners, learn some valuable life lessons, get some exercise and maybe produce the next Tiger and what do we do? slam the door in their faces or ignore them. Provided they are polite, have a chaperone to hand if young and play by the rules- bring 'em in.

If I had kids (and I don't so it's easy for me to say) I couldn't think of a better way to set them out on the right path in life than to encourage an interest in sport and golf in particular. It ticks all the boxes.

To combine this with the OP- I would like to think that this extension of the golf franchise would extend to boys and girls equally . The thought that it might not be appalls me.

 

[grumpyjock]

What we are discussing is if they wish then they should be able to, If not they they use the red not the yellow or white.
My grandson loves to use the front junior tee as he can then outdrive me from the yellows.
But we have to remember that all the little glitches place on the fairway and approaches are there to catch us out, therefore if they play off the yellow then they will not reach them.
With the advances it club technology a lightweight ladies club is just as good if not better than mens.

 

[Wildrover]

Quote
The Saturday morning mens 'carve up/swindle' should be the first format against the wall when the revolution comes and not a moment too soon.

As a regular Sat Morn swindler at our club, I feel I should point out that we book in and wait our turn like anyone else, regardless of gender, age or anything else.

 

[Hard_Rocca]

Brendy - The point is she would be playing exactly the same course. And she can already almost play to handicap. However, in fairness she should also be allowed to gain a handicap from these tees is the same way a male competitor would.

You have to ask yourself how you would feel if the only competitions you could play were on a Tuesday, except mixed competition which have no reflection on your handicap.

 

[viscount17]

barb, that looks like 1 stroke per par 5 and some par 4's. Not difficult to accomodate using the same handicaps but adjusting the SSI.

I've gone round with a couple of our ladies, I learn from them - they have much better control. I might hammer the drives but they're <u>always</u> in the fairway.

 

[TonyN]

I voted no, My reason being that women play a different course so handicaps adjusted or not, its not the same course.
NOW, saying that, if women were to play of the same tees, I think that 99% of them would not be competitive enough to win due to hitting distances alone.
Let the women have their competition and let the men have theirs.

If Paula C turned up at your club for a game would you still say no

But seriously though mate if a women thought she was good enough to play off the same tee and had a handicapp from yellow tee's of say 20, do you not think she be able to compete?

 

[brendy]

Women are allowed to play after 14.30 on saturdays at our club, still a different competition though which I agree with. Let me try to explain better, Men are all not great golfers, some are totally pants, does that mean they are only good enough for womens competitions? In other words, a girl playing of a low handicap shouldnt have to be good to deserve a spot playing in "a" competition, thats just wrong because some 14 handicap women are better than 14 handicap men, now heres the big but, BUT, there simply arnt enough hours in a day to let every single member play on a saturday so giving women some time slots on a saturday and all day tuesday seems better than nothing at all. Im sorry if I sound a little off, but unless you only let 50% of the men out and let an equal number of women out, membership will drop significantly. I cannot see how any club could sustain a 50/50 competition day membership as most men in my experience are there to compete first, socialise a close second where a lot of our lady members are more there for the social aspect and competition second.
You can socialise whenever you want but if a competition only has so many slots per day then time is the limiting factor.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I think if you are good enough then you should have the chance to play with the men. I can see quite a few men in my club (not just the seniors) who would have their noses put out of joint not only for allowing it in the first place but by getting soundly whooped week in week out.

Without being overly sexist though there would have to be some restrictions. Some of our ladies barely get round off the reds so they'd have to take a tent and supplies off the whites and make a weekend of it

 

[TonyN]

Each to there own brendy and i'm certainly not arguing with you (would i dare) haha. But i just think that if a female was good enough to challenge the men in a comp, why shouldnt she be allowed (you dont have to answer again)

And you didnt answer my first question buddy!

 

[billyg]

Women are allowed to play after 14.30 on saturdays at our club, still a different competition though which I agree with. Let me try to explain better, Men are all not great golfers, some are totally pants, does that mean they are only good enough for womens competitions? In other words, a girl playing of a low handicap shouldnt have to be good to deserve a spot playing in "a" competition, thats just wrong because some 14 handicap women are better than 14 handicap men, now heres the big but, BUT, there simply arnt enough hours in a day to let every single member play on a saturday so giving women some time slots on a saturday and all day tuesday seems better than nothing at all. Im sorry if I sound a little off, but unless you only let 50% of the men out and let an equal number of women out, membership will drop significantly. I cannot see how any club could sustain a 50/50 competition day membership as most men in my experience are there to compete first, socialise a close second where a lot of our lady members are more there for the social aspect and competition second.
You can socialise whenever you want but if a competition only has so many slots per day then time is the limiting factor.

Were going to have to agree to differ on this one as I prettymuch disagree with almost everything you have said. Perhaps it's best left to some of our lady members to fight their corner as they see fit.

To the swindler who manages to get his groups out every Saturday morning despite 'waiting his turn' - I would be curious to know exactly how you manage that one if there is a booking system in place. Block booking? preferencial time slots? one of the chaps hovering over the phone on a Monday morning? sway with the club captain?

The only other explination could be people such as myself who have effectively have had enough of the type of characters I outlined before in which case the justfication hardly counts as democratic does it?

Whichever way you 'carve it up' the idea of a club of say 500 having their playing opportunities dictated to by a beligerant ten percent or less is unhealthy and outdated IMHO.

Others may be willing to sign up to the entrenched infrastructure of this scam but I wasn't. On my checklist of pre-requisites when joining a club was:-

1) Do you have a regular group of Saturday morning swindlers?

2) If I were to join could I book a Saturday morning slot for a mixed group without fear or favour?

It's only a matter of time before the market dictates that further transparency about how clubs operate their tee allocations (along with many other variables) becomes the norm.

For example, our club has a sliding scale of priority booking based on fees alone. If your a wealthy male or female with the inclination to chuck an extra £700 a year at playing before ten then knock yourself out- thanks - I can play a little later and your cost of privilage subsidises my course maintainance and excellent facilities.

Clubs favouring a small percentage of their members at the expense of the majority (for no other adequately explained reason other that convention or bl@@dy-minded masogeny) will go to the wall or be forced to think again. Sure, some crusty (predominantly men) men will huff and leave- big deal and good riddance to 'em. Short format bowling sits in the wings just wringing its hands and awaiting your patronage gentlemen.

rant over

 

[brendy]

Can I make it clear that I am not against women playing on saturdays etc. In fact I am not against women playing on Saturday competitions with the men, what I am asking is why should a lady golfer have to prove herself to get out to play with the men, I mean if a lady plays of 5 she should be no more entitled to play over say a 28 handicap male player and vice versa. I think my intentions are a little misunderstood here, I do play in mixed comps etc also.

What I dont understand, however, is women coming into a club demanding things.
Its like everything in life, you have choices in where you join to play, surely anyone forking out hundreds of pounds to join a club would at least do a little investigation to see how the club is run before parting with the cash. I would never joing a predominantly female club then begin slowly erroding the womens traditions of their club.
How come, and prove me wrong, Id be interested to see if any exist, there are no women only golf clubs? They would have their courses, the men would have theirs.
Tony, Paula Creamer is gorgeous but i'd have to say Id still try my damnedest to take her pound on the 18th green! I wouldnt want my wife thinking I was going easy on her!

 

[viscount17]

that's a bit better, brendy. It was the implication that they have to 'prove' themselves before being allowed to join the men that grated. we all do that by getting a handicap.

still think your argument about limited availability of competition slots is flawed - we all have that anyway. competitions don't occupy all the saturday/sunday slots. the sheet goes on the board, you put your name on, when the list is full you go on the reserve. what difference who is on the list? the competition requirements sort out eligibility, ie entrants must have a handicap.

 

[brendy]

Our club has tried the saturday and sunday route last year but vitually all male members still wanted out on the saturday.
Noone needs to prove themselves, if they pay the money then they should be allowed out onto the course to enter the competitions but as I said, time is the killer, some other local clubs have two courses and its really not a problem for them but for us its always going to be a controversial point as noone is ever going to be totally right.
Under our GUI rules mens competitions must take place on consecutive days ie friday and saturday or saturday and sunday, under the ladies rules ILGU they are permitted to split any two days of the week for a single competition so tuesday and saturday or tuesday and sunday is fine (ladies have tuesdays to themselves and make good use of it)
To be completely honest, it baffles me as to why a high percentage of women have joined our club when a two course club is literally 3 minutes drive from ours.

 

[toonarmy]

The only way you can allow it is to effectively remove the gender from golf and everyone plays off the same tees, everyone has the same handicap system on offer and everyone pays the same fees. By extension, everyone has the same voting rights, club access and everything else.

Until this happens, and they persist in having men's and women's events/tours, it should be kept separate. Personally, I have not truck whatsoever with the Michelle Wie's and Oscar Pretorius' of this world. To say you are bored of beating your category and want to 'compete against better players' is incredibly arrogant and insulting.

Van de Velde copped flak for saying that if Wie was allowed to play on the men's tour events, he should be allowed to play on the women's tour events. Can't fault his logic in my view.

In the words of pointy-finger actor Jeff Goldblum in 'Jurassic Park':

"You were so busy trying to see if you could, that you didn't stop to think if you should".

Unless the gender tours are scrapped, it's women's events for women, men's events for men, junior events for juniors and mixed events where we can all get along.

Hard-Rocca - just because your sister is better than you doesn't mean she should be playing against men. It means she should be playing against better women.

 

[Wildrover]

Billy G

We get our swindle out on a Sat morn because our club does not operate a booking system for members. We just turn up, put our names on the start sheet in the shop and go out when it's our turn. So if there is a party in front of us then so be it we don't throw our toys out the pram. We would all still play on a saturday morning even if there was no swindle so what is the problem of of us all having a bit of friendly competition. We also put more money into the club than the average player who finishes on 18 and goes straight home as we all congregate in the bar afterwards.
I can see why you might object if your club has a booking policy but from my experience swindlers at most clubs tend to be middle aged family men who work all week and like to get a game early on a saturday so they can spend the rest of the day with their families. Is that so wrong?
For the record this crusty old swindler is 38.

 

[billyg]

Billy G

We get our swindle out on a Sat morn because our club does not operate a booking system for members. We just turn up, put our names on the start sheet in the shop and go out when it's our turn. So if there is a party in front of us then so be it we don't throw our toys out the pram. We would all still play on a saturday morning even if there was no swindle so what is the problem of of us all having a bit of friendly competition. We also put more money into the club than the average player who finishes on 18 and goes straight home as we all congregate in the bar afterwards.
I can see why you might object if your club has a booking policy but from my experience swindlers at most clubs tend to be middle aged family men who work all week and like to get a game early on a saturday so they can spend the rest of the day with their families. Is that so wrong?
For the record this crusty old swindler is 38.

All the classic arguments that a swindler comes up for hogging Saturday mornings IMO.

Well have to agree to disagree as we share almost no common ground on this.

For the record this non-swindler is 37 making you older and therefore ever so slightly more crusty than I

 

[GB72]

Sorry if this is a crap question but what is a 'swindle'. As I am fairly new to being a club member I have never heard of or taken part in one.

 

[Dinx]

Hi everyone
I am the sister from Hard Rocca's post & up until now have just been reading the messages & seeing reactions, which on the whole have been much more forward thinking & encouraging than I gave the golfing world credit for.
It's great to see that most of you want to see a more unified competition status & also wouldn't mind if I tried to play off the mens tees! I'm very pleased that my brother posted this thread.
However one mail really annoyed me & I have to get it off my chest!
Toon - whatever you call yourself, if you'd bothered to read the posts that my brother has put I'm not trying to compete with men because I think I'm too good for the women. I'm asking to play in these competitions because ladies day is a Tuesday & I work, therefore I get to play virtually no competitive golf & that's all I want to do.
I understand that everyone has the right to their own opinion but quite frankly you should definitely put your other foot back in the dark ages & stay there!
Thank you again to everyone else, even those who didn't necessarily agree, it was good to see on the whole a good constructive debate to a somewhat delicate topic.