Is it worth it - again??

[delc]

Hardly anyone knows all the rules so its likely we've all transgressed and benefitted (or not) from a situation where we shouldn't, that's not cheating in my opinion and when it happens we hope we learn the correct action in the future. I just worry when people play regularly in competitions and don't even know the very basics and, like I had last week, someone who acknowledged that I do study the rules and that he didn't, but argued vehemently that if you play a provisional and find your first ball in a water hazard you have to play the provisional come what may! How many others will he misadvise

To be fair to him, this is not always an easy set of rules to interpret. If you know or are virtually certain that your original ball has gone into a water hazard you should proceed under Rule 26-1, which states:

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual*certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the*hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
If a ball is found*in*the water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in*the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and*distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball*as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or
c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.
(Prohibited actions when ball is in a hazard - see Rule 13-4)
(Ball moving in water in a water hazard - see Rule 14-6)
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

So proceeding under Rule 27-1 is already an option in 26-1.

If there is any possibility that the ball has not gone into the water hazard, you may play a provisional ball under Rule 27-2, but if the original ball is found either inside or outside the water hazard within 5 minutes, it is still the ball in play and the provisional ball must be abandoned.

So quite a lot depends on what you say or do.

 

[rickg]

^^^^^^^^^ sigh

 

[bladeplayer]

This much depends on whether it is match play or stroke play. Referees have no authority to intervene in matches other than in relation to Rule 1-3, 6-7 or 33-7, unless they has been assigned to accompany the match for its duration. (see definition of a referee).

In stroke play referees are not obliged to offer advice on the rules, but it is recommended that they do so. (decision 34-2/3).

Thank You for that

 

[rulefan]

To pass the driving test (motoring) you have to take and pass the written test. Why not a rules test before you can enter competitions?

In some European countries they require you to pass a rules test before you are allowed on a course.

 

[chrisd]

To be fair to him, this is not always an easy set of rules to interpret. If you know or are virtually certain that your original ball has gone into a water hazard you should proceed under Rule 26-1, which states:

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual*certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the*hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
If a ball is found*in*the water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in*the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:
a. Proceed under the stroke and*distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball*as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or
b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or
c. As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole.
When proceeding under this Rule, the player may lift and clean his ball or substitute a ball.
(Prohibited actions when ball is in a hazard - see Rule 13-4)
(Ball moving in water in a water hazard - see Rule 14-6)
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play - Loss of hole; Stroke play - Two strokes.

So proceeding under Rule 27-1 is already an option in 26-1.

If there is any possibility that the ball has not gone into the water hazard, you may play a provisional ball under Rule 27-2, but if the original ball is found either inside or outside the water hazard within 5 minutes, it is still the ball in play and the provisional ball must be abandoned.

So quite a lot depends on what you say or do.

Del ..... I know the rule, I know how to apply it and I also just know that you're just going to post the whole rule and come up with something that is meaningless!

 

[Crow]

Taking a slightly different perspective.....

I played in the Scottish ladies this year and found myself in a horrible spot in a bunker with the wooden sleepers that comprised the back wall interfering with my shot. I attempted to play out at an angle rather than right at the pin but hit the sleepers and missed the ball. I was then looking at maybe just trying to move the ball within the bunker and get out with my next shot... Taking a lot of time to come up with a plan....

Anyway, a rules official was nearby and had seen all this. She came down and informed me that, in fact, I could get a free drop away from the sleepers.

So, if I had known the rules I would have saved myself a shot. (Or the multiple shots it would have cost me if the rules official hadn't intervened.) And THAT would have been worth it.

I chatted with her after my round and it transpired it wasn't a local rule, it's a rule of golf. Just one I wasn't terribly aware of never having played a course with bunkers like that.

I'm surprised at this and wouldn't have thought relief was available.
After a quick scan through the R&A rules site I've found nothing saying anything either way.

I did find a section in local rules where it's possible to declare immovable obstructions as part of the course, I'd have expected railway sleepers being used as a bunker face to be so declared and, therefore, no relief would be available.

 

[delc]

Del ..... I know the rule, I know how to apply it and I also just know that you're just going to post the whole rule and come up with something that is meaningless!

Essentially, if you know or are virtually certain that your ball has gone into a water hazard, you can either walk up to the hazard and take a penalty drop, or play 3 off the tee. If you are not sure you can play a provisional ball after declaring it as such to your PPs. If you do not declare it as a provisional ball it becomes the ball in play, whether or not the original ball is found.

 

[chrisd]

Essentially, if you know or are virtually certain that your ball has gone into a water hazard, you can either walk up to the hazard and take a penalty drop, or play 3 off the tee. If you are not sure you can play a provisional ball after declaring it as such to your PPs. If you do not declare it as a provisional ball it becomes the ball in play, whether or not the original ball is found.

Del ...... Read all the posts!

I know the rules, I was arguing with someone who didn't and wouldn't accept that I did. Please please please read all the posts before posting!!!

 

[rosecott]

I'm surprised at this and wouldn't have thought relief was available.
After a quick scan through the R&A rules site I've found nothing saying anything either way.

I did find a section in local rules where it's possible to declare immovable obstructions as part of the course, I'd have expected railway sleepers being used as a bunker face to be so declared and, therefore, no relief would be available.

Rule 24 2b(ii) covers immovable obstructions in bunkers. I would consider it unreasonable - and very dangerous - to have a Local Rule declaring the sleepers as an integral part of the course.

 

[Crow]

Rule 24 2b(ii) covers immovable obstructions in bunkers. I would consider it unreasonable - and very dangerous - to have a Local Rule declaring the sleepers as an integral part of the course.

I assume that you're referring to the danger of ricochets off the sleepers hitting the player?
The sleepers in the post were the back wall of the bunker and so would not normally be in the direction of play.
I suppose, however, that they could be if the player chose not to play directly at the hole but relief would only be obtainable if they affected stance or swing so the danger from ricochets would still be there.

 

[delc]

Del ...... Read all the posts!

I know the rules, I was arguing with someone who didn't and wouldn't accept that I did. Please please please read all the posts before posting!!!

I was just trying to explain why he thought the way he did. My experience with FCs, PPs and opponents is that anything to do with provisional balls or 3 off the tee is a complete nightmare! I normally carry the small rules book in my bag, but even then you sometimes need the decisions which are not included.

 

[rosecott]

I assume that you're referring to the danger of ricochets off the sleepers hitting the player?
The sleepers in the post were the back wall of the bunker and so would not normally be in the direction of play.
I suppose, however, that they could be if the player chose not to play directly at the hole but relief would only be obtainable if they affected stance or swing so the danger from ricochets would still be there.

I was thinking more about damage to the player by hitting the sleepers in the process of attempting a shot. It's punishment enough being in the bunker without compounding it.

 

[chrisd]

To be fair to him, this is not always an easy set of rules to interpret.

Yes it really is

So quite a lot depends on what you say or do.

No it doesn't!

 

[Crow]

I was thinking more about damage to the player by hitting the sleepers in the process of attempting a shot. It's punishment enough being in the bunker without compounding it.

Not sure if you're commenting tongue in cheek or not, but you could say the same for being up against a tree trunk.

Having looked on the net a little further there are examples of local rules of sleepers being declared integral parts of the course, see link below from Burnham Beeches, rule 4.c
http://www.bbgc.co.uk/course/local_rules/

 

[drdel]

So it seems to me that some people know more about the rules than others. Also, it seems, some people play by the rules, some don't and some even break the rules deliberately - Oh dear, Oh dear - what shall we do?

Conclusion - unfortunately for many of you, especially the self appointed guardians of golf, golfers are pretty much like everybody else (heaven forbid) and, guess what, golf is pretty much like everyday life.

 

[chrisd]

So it seems to me that some people know more about the rules than others. Also, it seems, some people play by the rules, some don't and some even break the rules deliberately - Oh dear, Oh dear - what shall we do?

Conclusion - unfortunately for many of you, especially the self appointed guardians of golf, golfers are pretty much like everybody else (heaven forbid) and, guess what, golf is pretty much like everyday life.

So do we just accept it and turn a blind eye?

 

[FairwayDodger]

I'm surprised at this and wouldn't have thought relief was available.
After a quick scan through the R&A rules site I've found nothing saying anything either way.

I did find a section in local rules where it's possible to declare immovable obstructions as part of the course, I'd have expected railway sleepers being used as a bunker face to be so declared and, therefore, no relief would be available.

They were immovable obstructions and not declared as IPC by the club.

 

[rosecott]

Not sure if you're commenting tongue in cheek or not, but you could say the same for being up against a tree trunk.

Having looked on the net a little further there are examples of local rules of sleepers being declared integral parts of the course, see link below from Burnham Beeches, rule 4.c
http://www.bbgc.co.uk/course/local_rules/

No - not tongue in cheek. A tree trunk is not an immovable obstruction - could be a loose impediment if it was lying down unattached.

What I was saying is that the possibility for a Local Rule declaring something as an integral part of the course doesn't mean to say that you have to have the Local Rule.

 

[Leftie]

Essentially, if you know or are virtually certain that your ball has gone into a water hazard, you can either walk up to the hazard and take a penalty drop, or play 3 off the tee.

As I understand it, YES. Once you have played 3 off the tee then that is the ball in play - even if you find the original ball, in play or not.

If you are not sure you can play a provisional ball after declaring it as such to your PPs.

As I understand it, NO, No, No.... If you are VC that the ball is in the water hazard and playing another off the tee, then you are playing 3 off the tee, not a provisional. You can't play a provisional just in case you can't find the original that may/may not be in a water hazard because if you are not VC that it is in and can't find it, then it isn't in and is lost.

If I'm wrong then I accept the incoming flak. If I'm right then someone far more erudite than me will explain the rule in easy to assimulate way.

 

[delc]

As I understand it, YES. Once you have played 3 off the tee then that is the ball in play - even if you find the original ball, in play or not.

As I understand it, NO, No, No.... If you are VC that the ball is in the water hazard and playing another off the tee, then you are playing 3 off the tee, not a provisional. You can't play a provisional just in case you can't find the original that may/may not be in a water hazard because if you are not VC that it is in and can't find it, then it isn't in and is lost.


If I'm wrong then I accept the incoming flak. If I'm right then someone far more erudite than me will explain the rule in easy to assimulate way.

If you are uncertain that a ball has entered a water hazard and may be lost or OOB, you can play a provisional ball. If you find the original ball either inside or outside the water hazard you must abandon the provisional ball and continue as normal including any penalty strokes under Rule 26-1 if in the hazard. If you can't find the original ball, then it is lost and you continue with the provisional ball under stroke and distance penalty.