Is a provisional ball classed as 3 off the tee?

[KhalJimbo]

Just looked at all these videos and read the rules on the R&A site. My only thing is it states when to play a provisional, how to declare it provisional, but unless I am mistaken none of them state explicitly that the provisional ball is classed as your third shot.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just looked at all these videos and read the rules on the R&A site. My only thing is it states when to play a provisional, how to declare it provisional, but unless I am mistaken none of them state explicitly that the provisional ball is classed as your third shot.

The provisional ball from the tee isn't your third shot until you have played it from a position past where you think your original went - your provisional is then the ball in play.

As others have mentioned - playing a provisional (from tee or anywhere in fact) is no more than a time saving measure. It means you do not have to go back to where you played your last shot (the one that ended up with you not being able to find your ball). In going back you incur a One Shot penalty. When you reach the point from where you played your shot - may be the tee or if not will be a point as near as you can estimate and agree with playing partners - you then play your next shot.

So first shot - 1; penalty shot (and back to where you came from) - 2; next shot -3. Playing a provisional is only doing this in advance and in itself does not count 3 until the provisional ball is played as described above.

 

[rosecott]

Just looked at all these videos and read the rules on the R&A site. My only thing is it states when to play a provisional, how to declare it provisional, but unless I am mistaken none of them state explicitly that the provisional ball is classed as your third shot.

If you play a second ball from the tee, that ball is automatically your third shot (under stroke and distance) if it eventually becomes the ball in play. Declaring that second ball as a provisional is a measure to save time. If you are unable to find your original ball then the second ball becomes the ball in play - and it lies 3.

If you had not played a second ball from the tee, you would have to return to the tee if you failed to find your original ball. You would then be playing your third shot (under stroke and distance). Playing a provisional would have saved you the walk back to the tee.

 

[rulefan]

Just looked at all these videos and read the rules on the R&A site. My only thing is it states when to play a provisional, how to declare it provisional, but unless I am mistaken none of them state explicitly that the provisional ball is classed as your third shot.

You are in effect playing under rule 27-1. Except that you are playing with the proviso that it will only take effect if your original ball may not be found or be OOB.

Announcing that it is Provisional precludes 27-1a, because if you find the original in play you must abandon the provisional.
Not announcing that it is a Provisional means that 27-1a applies and the original is now lost (as in the definition of lost).

27-1
a Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance
At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.
Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.

b. Ball Out of Bounds
If a ball is out of bounds, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

c. Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
If a ball is lost as a result of not being found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

 

[drdel]

Surely its is not difficult to count how many shots you've taken and then add a penalty.

First shot, (1) provisional (shot #2), penalty (+1), so that makes a score of 3 as you leave the Tee, e.g. 3 off the Tee, making next shot the 4th: arithmetic make you're head hurt?

 

[KhalJimbo]

Surely its is not difficult to count how many shots you've taken and then add a penalty.

First shot, (1) provisional (shot #2), penalty (+1), so that makes a score of 3 as you leave the Tee, e.g. 3 off the Tee, making next shot the 4th: arithmetic make you're head hurt?

Reading threads properly make your head hurt?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Reading threads properly make your head hurt?

I'm sure you can count you just need to know what to count...

Hopefully you're clear on it now. Whilst @drdel is correct in his counting I think it is easier to understand the rules around provisional if you think about it the way @rosecott and I've described rather than how he's described it (well I would say that wouldn't I), as my way I hope follows the logic of the rules rather than 'practice'. And it's easier for you to explain to someone else (there are lots of rules that require this sort of thinking btw)

 

[woody69]

Others have explained it that it is always 3 off the tee (if you play the provisional and it becomes the ball in play), but think about it logically.

If you take your first shot and you think it may be lost under the leaves, how would it be OK to put another ball on the tee and hit it without any sort of penalty? If you were now on the green for just 1, why would you even bother to go and look for the original if you had a chance to sink the putt for a "birdie". Everyone would be hitting the provisional as it would give you a 2nd chance to play the same shot with no comeback.

So yeah, if you think you have lost your original, drop another and then play that as a provisional, and then hit the provisional again, you've had 3 off the tee and just had your 4th shot.

"I then proceeded with 3 more stokes and carding a 4 for 2 (I had 1 shot on the hole)" I can only assume from his sentence that you completely discounted your first ball that you decided was lost and didn't include the actual penalty incurred for dropping a new ball (the provisional) down? Either way, it should be 6 - 1. Initial ball (lost) + 2. drop + 3. provisional hit + 4. bunker shot + 5&6. 2 putts

 

[KhalJimbo]

I'm sure you can count you just need to know what to count...

Hopefully you're clear on it now. Whilst @drdel is correct in his counting I think it is easier to understand the rules around provisional if you think about it the way @rosecott and I've described rather than how he's described it (well I would say that wouldn't I), as my way I hope follows the logic of the rules rather than 'practice'. And it's easier for you to explain to someone else (there are lots of rules that require this sort of thinking btw)

Quite right, its clear now, just as I stated before the rules around provisional don't explicitly state that should you carry on with your provisional it's classed as your third shot under penalty of stroke and distance. Might as well always just take a 3 off the tee each time if a provisional is the same.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Quite right, its clear now, just as I stated before the rules around provisional don't explicitly state that should you carry on with your provisional it's classed as your third shot under penalty of stroke and distance. Might as well always just take a 3 off the tee each time if a provisional is the same.

Well not quite...

There is a big difference between playing three off the tee and playing a provisional. But a simple statement you should make differentiates.

So let's say you think or know you are in trouble off the tee (or could be as a result of a shot played at any time - but stick with tee shot example). Now you can decide to play a provisional ball just in case the original is lost - in which case you must say words 'I'm playing a provisional' before playing you hit it. If you do NOT say these words then the ball you think of as a provisional is NOT a provisional - it is the ball in play and you will have ACTUALLY played 3. This means that even if you find your first ball - tough - your second ball is the one you go with - and your next shot is 4. If having announced and played a provisional you find your original, then you must play your original - the provisional is discarded and not a playable option.

I'll add that if you find your first it may be unplayable, and for this (or another reason) you may choose to take stroke and distance - and go back to the tee to play three (you can't at the point simply switch to your provisional - as mentioned - having found your original it's now irrelevant). As ever S&D is one of your options if at any time you decide your ball is not playable or you just don't want to play it from where it is.

 

[BillyBeardie]

Quite right, its clear now, just as I stated before the rules around provisional don't explicitly state that should you carry on with your provisional it's classed as your third shot under penalty of stroke and distance. Might as well always just take a 3 off the tee each time if a provisional is the same.

It doesn't explicitly state that it's your third (or three off the tee) as you can play a provisional for any shot not just your tee shot. It could well be your fourth or fifth if you have played an approach into a green and feel you may have lost your ball. Whenever a provisional is played it is counted as a shot plus a penalty of one as soon as it becomes the ball in play.

Hope this further clarifies.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It doesn't explicitly state that it's your third (or three off the tee) as you can play a provisional for any shot not just your tee shot. It could well be your fourth or fifth if you have played an approach into a green and feel you may have lost your ball. Whenever a provisional is played it is counted as a shot plus a penalty of one as soon as it becomes the ball in play.

Hope this further clarifies.

Yes - this from BB explains why the rule does not mention '3 off the tee' or 'playing 3' - because a provisional can be played at any point during playing of the hole. The use of 3 is specific to the scenario of playing your 1st provisional from the tee.

 

[drdel]

Goodness, an amazingly lengthy discussion - it takes only 13 words "Add up your strokes at the ball in play and add a penalty" - talk about labouring a point !

 

[rulefan]

Post #24 makes it clear that is simply a penalty stroke to be added to the score

 

[Old Skier]

Reading some of these rules threads makes me think that our decision to draw every comp was a good one.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Goodness, an amazingly lengthy discussion - it takes only 13 words "Add up your strokes at the ball in play and add a penalty" - talk about labouring a point !

Perhaps it is useful that someone who really isn't at all sure of a rule or what do do (such as the OP) has it explained why and why not rather than just how many to count.