Invitation day problem

D-S

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2020
Messages
704
Location
Bristol
That is not the case at all, there is a procedure within WHS for holes where the player has not finished the hole, which is already used in many parts of the world.

However that is not the reason it would stop the situstion outlined by the OP, if this was introduced then the substituted player would also need to be in on the fraud.
See my subsequent post
 

D-S

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2020
Messages
704
Location
Bristol
Most problems with how things work in the US are down to a general disregard for many of the Rules of Golf. And that isn't how MLS works.
I fundamentally disagree. MLS though admittedly complicated for some and abused by many adds a further complication and opens the door to much easier handicap manipulation both upwards and downwards. Rules of Golf ignorance is part of the problem but also ignorance of more complicated scoring rules due to MLS is a major part of the problem. The result however is the same, a total distrust of handicaps and hence the loss of almost all inter club competions and handicap based tournaments. These are the cornerstone of club culture over here and they are underpinned by faith in the “system’ - moving closer to the US model risks all of that.
 

fundy

Ryder Cup Winner
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
24,555
Location
Herts/Beds border
Whilst I agree in principle, generally at our club the entry money is used to fund the prizes. The club gets limited revenue from the entry fee and also from food and drink sales. So the value of the prize is proportionate to the number of entries and the entry fee.

then lower the entry money :)
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
4,551
Most problems with how things work in the US are down to a general disregard for many of the Rules of Golf. And that isn't how MLS works.
If players are willing to abuse the rules of golf, there will be players willing to abuse the rules of handicapping. In fact, the rules of handicapping might be considered less important to many than the rules of golf to many, they may not really be aware that there are rules related to handicapping, as they are less well publicised.

Certainly, MLS would not help combat against the types bandits on this thread. They'd happily stick a double or triple bogey on their card when they've a par putt, so long as their partner bags the points on that hole. You'd need a more advanced system that could detect patterns, such as one team player always blobbing a hole when another scores, and vice versa.
 
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,085
Location
Leicester
If players are willing to abuse the rules of golf, there will be players willing to abuse the rules of handicapping. In fact, the rules of handicapping might be considered less important to many than the rules of golf to many, they may not really be aware that there are rules related to handicapping, as they are less well publicised.

Certainly, MLS would not help combat against the types bandits on this thread. They'd happily stick a double or triple bogey on their card when they've a par putt, so long as their partner bags the points on that hole. You'd need a more advanced system that could detect patterns, such as one team player always blobbing a hole when another scores, and vice versa.
They would need the marker to go along with he false MLS score. If we want accurate handicaps then as many scores as possible need to score.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
4,551
They would need the marker to go along with he false MLS score. If we want accurate handicaps then as many scores as possible need to score.
They would. Mind you, most (i.e. all) opens I play in, and probably over 80% of the ones advertised on Golf Empire, are 4 ball team events, best 2 scores count on each hole. If you have one guy who is willing to inflate his handicap in a team, it doesn't take a stretch to think the whole team would either do the same, or at least not be too strict in ensuring their partners put down a reasonable score.

In a pairs event, with another marker, I can think of many many club golfers who'd not bother complaining about some potentially dodgy scores, simply to avoid any controversy or aggro. Easier to question a definitive score(s) if the ball has been holed, rather than determine was reasonable means in "Most Reasonable Score"
 
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
1,085
Location
Leicester
They would. Mind you, most (i.e. all) opens I play in, and probably over 80% of the ones advertised on Golf Empire, are 4 ball team events, best 2 scores count on each hole. If you have one guy who is willing to inflate his handicap in a team, it doesn't take a stretch to think the whole team would either do the same, or at least not be too strict in ensuring their partners put down a reasonable score.

In a pairs event, with another marker, I can think of many many club golfers who'd not bother complaining about some potentially dodgy scores, simply to avoid any controversy or aggro. Easier to question a definitive score(s) if the ball has been holed, rather than determine was reasonable means in "Most Reasonable Score"
I would suggest if players are cheating their handicaps in Am Am's then they will cheating full stop and you will never stop that while AM AM is a format. Guess would help if prizes were lowered, which I also support.
 

Swango1980

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
4,551
I would suggest if players are cheating their handicaps in Am Am's then they will cheating full stop and you will never stop that while AM AM is a format. Guess would help if prizes were lowered, which I also support.
I'd like to see a full database, that is linked to WHS, for players who specifically play in opens around the UK. No idea how it would be best used, but you could use it to track their scores, positions, partners, format type etc, and maybe even some algorithms can be used to seek out unusually good scores from certain players / teams.

It is wishful thinking, looking a long way into the future. But it would be a nice system for competition organisers to check the entrants. If any obvious cheating went on, it could be reported on this platform rather than relying on word of mouth (of course, I suppose if the guys above have their handicaps terminated, they are snookered anyway)
 

wjemather

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2020
Messages
1,101
Location
Bristol
If players are willing to abuse the rules of golf, there will be players willing to abuse the rules of handicapping. In fact, the rules of handicapping might be considered less important to many than the rules of golf to many, they may not really be aware that there are rules related to handicapping, as they are less well publicised.

Certainly, MLS would not help combat against the types bandits on this thread. They'd happily stick a double or triple bogey on their card when they've a par putt, so long as their partner bags the points on that hole. You'd need a more advanced system that could detect patterns, such as one team player always blobbing a hole when another scores, and vice versa.
Cheats will always cheat. MLS is simply an option that would allow players who aren't trying to cheat more opportunities to put scores in. For example, I'm currently in the middle of an extended period during which almost all my golf is either match play or pairs/team (looks like mid-late September before I'll get to post another score).
 

clubchamp98

Journeyman Pro
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
11,447
Location
Liverpool
Sandbagging (and other cheating) happens without any prizes; reducing the value of prizes would have minimal impact on this problem.
It needs trying though imo.
The prizes have become so valuable it just encourages cheating.
They might not risk their reputations for a trophy and free entry next year to defend their win.
I would stop all prizes in opens to handicap golfers
 
Last edited:

rulie

Head Pro
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
1,250
Lower the value of the "skill" prizes (a sleeve of balls?) and award the significant prizes as door prizes. That way everyone has an equal chance.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2021
Messages
49
Location
New Zealand
I disagree with reducing the prize money so as to reduce the temptation to cheat or to break the rules of golf . I think its all down to character type – if you’re an honest person, you’ll be honest. If a person has found a way to be dishonest, somehow in the value system they’ve created, they see themselves as above the law or general conventions. It’s basically a pattern of behaviour not a one-time event or temptation. If the prize was a $20 voucher or a $200 voucher they’d still be inclind to cheat if they thought it would be unnoticed. Like many behaviors, it tends to be the outgrowth of habits and beliefs acquired at a young age.
Golf is a self-policing sport without an umpire or referee and cheats are ego-oriented needing to win to feel better than everyone else rather than taking their satisfaction from their personal skill level
 

Smiffy

Grand Slam Winner
Joined
Oct 17, 2008
Messages
23,352
Location
Gods waiting room.....
I've played in quite a few opens over they years. Never played in one yet where I thought the prizes alone were worth the trip or entry fee, certainly not worth "cheating" for.
For me, I enter an Open for the chance to play a nice course, hopefully in the best of condition, for a fraction of the normal price with some food thrown in for good measure.
I don't even know what the prizes are!!
 

NearHull

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2018
Messages
673
I disagree with reducing the prize money so as to reduce the temptation to cheat or to break the rules of golf . I think its all down to character type – if you’re an honest person, you’ll be honest. If a person has found a way to be dishonest, somehow in the value system they’ve created, they see themselves as above the law or general conventions. It’s basically a pattern of behaviour not a one-time event or temptation. If the prize was a $20 voucher or a $200 voucher they’d still be inclind to cheat if they thought it would be unnoticed. Like many behaviors, it tends to be the outgrowth of habits and beliefs acquired at a young age.
Golf is a self-policing sport without an umpire or referee and cheats are ego-oriented needing to win to feel better than everyone else rather than taking their satisfaction from their personal skill level
The bold is a very accurate summation.
 

Tashyboy

Money List Winner
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
15,026
The problem is with the system as it is re these cheats the op is on about. If nothing is done, what precedent does it set. Like I and others have said, this is not a one off for them. If they cannot respect golf, golf should not respect them.

On a positive, am glad this topic is on here and not in the lounge as the wind up merchants have not commented yet.
 

Tashyboy

Money List Winner
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
15,026
It’s odd how some folk go out of there way to cheat. Me as Ave mentioned I put the wrong score down on the Ig app for yesterday. Made a call and the score was rectified. I went from winner to 2nd on countback. But it just would not of sat right. Am sure the different scores would of been picked up, but al sleep well tonight For the sake of £12 winnings.
 

clubchamp98

Journeyman Pro
Joined
Jan 23, 2014
Messages
11,447
Location
Liverpool
It’s odd how some folk go out of there way to cheat. Me as Ave mentioned I put the wrong score down on the Ig app for yesterday. Made a call and the score was rectified. I went from winner to 2nd on countback. But it just would not of sat right. Am sure the different scores would of been picked up, but al sleep well tonight For the sake of £12 winnings.
I can understand one guy cheating a bit.
But it is totally different for a fourball to all know he’s doing it.
That’s the sad bit nobody had the balls to call him out if they did know.
 
Top