Indyref2

[ColchesterFC]

I wasn't justifying anything. Just pointing out that when it comes to manifesto promises the government hasn't exactly stuck to them. And as you point out the no rise in NI was also in black and white.

To answer your three questions....
Yes.
I have no idea until the results of the negotiations are known.
Possibly because leaving the EU means not abiding by the rules they lay down for access to the single market. But that's a guess as I can't speak for any voter.

 

[Hobbit]

Aren't these bullet points talking about what would change assuming we were still in the EU?

I haven't read the whole manifesto as I'm not unhealthily obsessed like you but the context seems to be making changes from within? Could be wrong.....

On topic (as SILH transforms everything into Brecit!) I wonder if Sturgeon has overplayed her hand here trying to force it through before the terms of Brecit are known......

Thats how I read it too but I see little point in debating it with Hogie as he'll only shift topic when you think you've made an undeniable point.

 

[Sweep]

Pretty obvious to me the manifesto was written from the point of view of the UK as a member of the EU. As in all negotiations it's not in the U.K. Governments gift to state we will remain in the single market if we leave the EU. It also mentions reforming the workings of the EU which is not really possible if we are not in it, unless you count one of its biggest contributors leaving as a reform 😀

 

[drdel]

One day, over the rainbow,

No Government will implement anything not in their manifesto and they will implement everything written in said manifesto.

All the countries in the EU will implement regulations with equal effort; the EIB will be debt free. The French will be polite.
Spanish cops will not stop English run bars playing music while allowing the Spanish owned bar next door to what it likes 'til 5am.

Scotland will stop whinging about England and Sturgeon will move to Shetland to breed flying pigs !!

Delc and SWILH will enter a Euro-civil partnership and live happily ever after.

 

[Old Skier]

SNP now screaming for democracy. Not happy with democratic views of voters so I'm not sure what kind of democracy the SNP are after.

 

[delc]

SNP now screaming for democracy. Not happy with democratic views of voters so I'm not sure what kind of democracy the SNP are after.

All the reasons Mrs May gave for Scotland not leaving the UK Union also apply equally to the UK not leaving the European Union! 🙄

 

[Old Skier]

All the reasons Mrs May gave for Scotland not leaving the UK Union also apply equally to the UK not leaving the European Union! 🙄

I presume you forgot to add "In Your Opinion ".

 

[Deleted member 15344]

We will get a vote as well ?

Can't ever understand the want to leave the UK and join the EU ?!

 

[SocketRocket]

Here you go - top of Page 72 (bullet point 4 - my bolding)

Real change in our relationship
with the European Union
Our commitment to you:

For too long, your voice has been ignored on Europe. We will:

• give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum
  by the end of 2017
• commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone
• reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic
• reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and safeguard British interests in the Single Market
• back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape.

And so from the above it is very clear that the Tories saw a distinction between leaving the EU and leaving the Single Market - they are mentioned in separate bullets and not linked in these bullet points or in the text of the manifesto.

And as @SR has pointed out the manifesto stated that a conservative government would honour the result of the In/Out EU referendum, not mention of Single Market in respect of the referendum

The single market is a major constituent part of the EU, if we leave the EU it stands that we will leave all of it. Any future arrangements will be subject to negotiation on the terms of leaving and would form a new agreement with the EU. Out means OUT.

I disagree with you on your interpretation of how the manifesto makes any commitment to protecting the Single Market, it is clear that this only applies should the UK decide to remain.

 

[Old Skier]

We will get a vote as well ?

Can't ever understand the want to leave the UK and join the EU ?!

There were a number of Scots on the TV who admitted to voting for Independence last time around who did so just because becoming independent meant that they would automatically be out of the EU.

Spain once again making anti noises to them joining.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

 

[Deleted member 1418]

If IndyRef2 goes ahead, what about those areas of Scotland that vote to remain in the Union in the event of a 'yes' vote; will they be allowed to remain or will they demand a further referendum? Just interested as I heard on the news the other day that the Kingdom of Fife voted against independence last time out so would certainly be a relief if that was the case in terms of going to St Andrews and not having to worry about having to use whatever currency the rest of an independent Scotland was using!



Sorry!

Obviously a very emotive issue. After all the shenanigans with Brexit, will be interesting to see what will happen in any 'yes' vote and what say Westminster and Devolved Adminstration Parliaments will have on any deal brokered between the Government of the day and Scotland.

 

[Raesy92]

Aren't these bullet points talking about what would change assuming we were still in the EU?

I haven't read the whole manifesto as I'm not unhealthily obsessed like you but the context seems to be making changes from within? Could be wrong.....

On topic (as SILH transforms everything into Brecit!) I wonder if Sturgeon has overplayed her hand here trying to force it through before the terms of Brecit are known......

I would say she has played her hand brilliantly. If TM really does not want Scotland to leave the union, then she will try her damn hardest to make sure the Scottish people get a good deal in these Brexit negotiations. So by doing this it could be argued NS is doing what is in the best interests of the Scottish people.

The terms of Brexit would be known by the time of the referendum vote, so if the terms agreed are not in Scotland's best interests, then the likelihood of independence will increase and Scotland will become an independent nation.

 

[Raesy92]

SNP now screaming for democracy. Not happy with democratic views of voters so I'm not sure what kind of democracy the SNP are after.

The democratic views of the Scottish people was overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU.

 

[SocketRocket]

I would say she has played her hand brilliantly. If TM really does not want Scotland to leave the union, then she will try her damn hardest to make sure the Scottish people get a good deal in these Brexit negotiations. So by doing this it could be argued NS is doing what is in the best interests of the Scottish people.

The terms of Brexit would be known by the time of the referendum vote, so if the terms agreed are not in Scotland's best interests, then the likelihood of independence will increase and Scotland will become an independent nation.

The terms of any Brexit agreement with the EU will be in Scotland's best interest as if they decide to leave the UK then they will be leaving their biggest single market by far and cutting off the hand that feeds them. The EU will not want to offer a hand clasping gold and IMO would delay any application from Scotland to join, maybe indefinitely. Independence would be the road to isolation and poverty.

 

[NWJocko]

I would say she has played her hand brilliantly. If TM really does not want Scotland to leave the union, then she will try her damn hardest to make sure the Scottish people get a good deal in these Brexit negotiations. So by doing this it could be argued NS is doing what is in the best interests of the Scottish people.

The terms of Brexit would be known by the time of the referendum vote, so if the terms agreed are not in Scotland's best interests, then the likelihood of independence will increase and Scotland will become an independent nation.

I guess I meant in terms of the lack of appetite from many in Scotland for another referendum so soon.

You and I both know that whatever terms are in place for Brexit the SNP are going to argue they aren't in the best interests of the SNP, sorry the Scottish people, don't we?

She played a political blinder (not unusual for the SNP, -/ I've said before they're great at that game which isn't a compliment) by a)stealing the thunder of the A50 announcement and b) takes the focus off their failings in govt as everyone will just be talking yes/no again........

 

[Raesy92]

The terms of any Brexit agreement with the EU will be in Scotland's best interest as if they decide to leave the UK then they will be leaving their biggest single market by far and cutting off the hand that feeds them. The EU will not want to offer a hand clasping gold and IMO would delay any application from Scotland to join, maybe indefinitely. Independence would be the road to isolation and poverty.

Different Brexit agreements can be more or less beneficial. If TM wants Scotland to remain in the UK surely she'd negotiate with this in mind.

 

[Raesy92]

I guess I meant in terms of the lack of appetite from many in Scotland for another referendum so soon.

You and I both know that whatever terms are in place for Brexit the SNP are going to argue they aren't in the best interests of the SNP, sorry the Scottish people, don't we?

She played a political blinder (not unusual for the SNP, -/ I've said before they're great at that game which isn't a compliment) by a)stealing the thunder of the A50 announcement and b) takes the focus off their failings in govt as everyone will just be talking yes/no again........

But at least if these failings happened in an independent Scotland. We could decide who we want to replace the SNP. While Scotland has devolved powers, we don't have control over the total budget. Cuts from Westminster on areas that do not concern education, can still have a negative impact on education.

 

[NWJocko]

But at least if these failings happened in an independent Scotland. We could decide who we want to replace the SNP. While Scotland has devolved powers, we don't have control over the total budget. Cuts from Westminster on areas that do not concern education, can still have a negative impact on education.

Can you not decide now to replace the SNP....!? The problem is there isn't credible opposition, would you see that changing post independence?

I get that you're pro Independence which is fine, just sad that the divide the last referendum caused is still raw and is already getting ramped up by the SNP for their own opportunist gains.

I'm no Tory but some merit in what May said about the SNP spending more time actually doing their day jobs better ratter than constantly agitating for another Indy vote. Oldest political trick in the book to distract the electorate......

 

[Raesy92]

Can you not decide now to replace the SNP....!? The problem is there isn't credible opposition, would you see that changing post independence?

I get that you're pro Independence which is fine, just sad that the divide the last referendum caused is still raw and is already getting ramped up by the SNP for their own opportunist gains.

I'm no Tory but some merit in what May said about the SNP spending more time actually doing their day jobs better ratter than constantly agitating for another Indy vote. Oldest political trick in the book to distract the electorate......

What I was getting at is that while the SNP do have some powers, they do not have total control over all matters. I am pro-independence, but I am not pro SNP.

Apart from the SNP what opposition party is there to challenge the Tories though? Scottish labour are all but finished.