CliveW
Tour Winner
Surely rule 20-6 relates to a ball being placed when it should have been dropped, or dropped when it should have been placed and nothing to do with the point where the ball is dropped?
How would you penalise this guy (if at all?)
- Thread starter Paul_Stewart
- Start date
Colin L
Tour Winner
Rule 20-6 is very straightfoward and applies to an incorrect substitution such as occurred in the OP's story.
A ball incorrectly substituted, dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly.
Decision 20-6/1 clarifies that this includes a ball that has been dropped when it should have been placed and vice versa.
rulefan
Tour Winner
A number of rules allow a player to correct a mistake without causing significant damage.
The most obvious is accidentally moving the ball. 1 stroke penalty. If you want to avoid another penalty you can replace it.
In this case the player dropped the ball intending to substitute a ball when he wasn't entitled to. If he had played it, big problem (see below). So he could have corrected the mistake by picking it up and playing the correct ball.
Rule 15-2 makes it clear that Rule 20-6 is the mechanism for correction.
If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, thatsubstituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball.
rulefan
Tour Winner
I'll try again with this peculiar editor
If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball.
If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play. If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the substituted ball.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Cheers guys.
I do find this one confusing. Been thinking about it all day!
Here's my take.
Decision 27-1/2 confrms that when you drop a ball with the intention of proceeding under Rue 27-1 the ball is in play when it is dropped.
In this case the player wasn't intending to proceed under 27-1 but de-facto was (Decsion 27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard)
In that case I can see that the ball was in play when dropped. So I am with Clive W on that, I thnk.
However at that point it might have been pointed out to him that he had now not only put another ball into play under Rule 27-1 but had dropped it in the wrong place. I.e not from where the stroke was last played. The dropped ball is now the ball in play and it's too late to correct that but he could then have picked up the ball under Rule 20-6 walked back and proceeded correctly under Rule 27-1, still incurring the stroke and distance penalty but avoiding the penalties for playing from the wrong place.
Does that make sense?
I do find this one confusing. Been thinking about it all day!
Here's my take.
Decision 27-1/2 confrms that when you drop a ball with the intention of proceeding under Rue 27-1 the ball is in play when it is dropped.
In this case the player wasn't intending to proceed under 27-1 but de-facto was (Decsion 27-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard)
In that case I can see that the ball was in play when dropped. So I am with Clive W on that, I thnk.
However at that point it might have been pointed out to him that he had now not only put another ball into play under Rule 27-1 but had dropped it in the wrong place. I.e not from where the stroke was last played. The dropped ball is now the ball in play and it's too late to correct that but he could then have picked up the ball under Rule 20-6 walked back and proceeded correctly under Rule 27-1, still incurring the stroke and distance penalty but avoiding the penalties for playing from the wrong place.
Does that make sense?
rulefan
Tour Winner
It does.
However 27-2a/2 is a bit of a red herring as in that case the ball was actually played so there was no way back.
However 27-2a/2 is a bit of a red herring as in that case the ball was actually played so there was no way back.
Paul_Stewart
Tour Rookie
I'm glad I was able to contribute this one to a lively thread debate. It was a real mess. The guy was just a dick. We just couldn't believe the balls of the bloke to try and get away with what exactly he'd made such a thing of four holes earlier. Then he was back-pedalling faster than you could believe humanly possible.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Yes indeed. I should, in addition, have referred to Decision 27-1/2 Original Ball Found Within Five-Minute Search Period After Another Ball Dropped. Which in fact explicitly excludes Rule 20-6 applying in that case.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Yes, that is so because he was dropping legitimately under a rule.
Colin L
Tour Winner
Isn't this becoming a bit over-complicated by references to Decisions that are not actually needed and arguably not relevant? Both 27-1/2 and 27-1a/2 are to do with balls that were played from/put into play at the correct place. The case here is an incorrect substitution at a wrong place.
What happened was fairly straightforward and can be dealt with through just 3 rules:
27-1 The player thought he was playing a provisional. He couldn't and the only applicable rule for what he did is 27-1 stroke and distance. (The water hazard isn't relevant)
20-7(c) He did not drop at the spot from which he had played his previous stroke and so played from a wrong place incurring 2 PS. He should have played out the hole with that ball.
15-3(b) Instead he played his original ball. Because his stroke at the substituted ball had put his original ball out of play, he played a wrong ball incurring 2 PS. He should have put that right by playing the correct ball. As he didn't, he is disqualified.
The additional points made above are
a) that after he dropped the ball in the wrong place and before he made a stroke at it, he could have lifted it without penalty and gone on to look for, find and play his original ball. (Rule 20-6)
b) he was probably in a serious breach of 27-1 in dropping where he did and would be disqualified for that.
What happened was fairly straightforward and can be dealt with through just 3 rules:
27-1 The player thought he was playing a provisional. He couldn't and the only applicable rule for what he did is 27-1 stroke and distance. (The water hazard isn't relevant)
20-7(c) He did not drop at the spot from which he had played his previous stroke and so played from a wrong place incurring 2 PS. He should have played out the hole with that ball.
15-3(b) Instead he played his original ball. Because his stroke at the substituted ball had put his original ball out of play, he played a wrong ball incurring 2 PS. He should have put that right by playing the correct ball. As he didn't, he is disqualified.
The additional points made above are
a) that after he dropped the ball in the wrong place and before he made a stroke at it, he could have lifted it without penalty and gone on to look for, find and play his original ball. (Rule 20-6)
b) he was probably in a serious breach of 27-1 in dropping where he did and would be disqualified for that.
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rulefan
Tour Winner
Not really. The two decisions were introduced in effect as questions trying to clarify the use of 20-6.
20-6 potentially being the first opportunity for preventing the rest of the mess.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Sorry if I complicated things but was trying to think through what I might do if a similar thing happend in my group and whether I could just tell the chap after the drop that he can't play a provisional and to pick it up and search for the original with no penalty (under Rule 20-6) or whether once he dropped the ball it was too late and Rule 27-1 applied.
Still not sure actually.
Still not sure actually.
rulefan
Tour Winner
Although the ball is in play after the drop, as it was dropped other than under a rule permitting the drop, it may be corrected under 20-6 without penalty.
That is the purpose of the rule which is entitled Lifting Ball Incorrectly Substituted, Dropped Or Placed
Playing the ball kills that option and an appropriate rule is assigned to the action with penalty.
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Colin L
Tour Winner
No harm in thinking out loud in these matters, Mashie. I was just trying to bring the original question back to the fairly straightforward sequence of events that are covered by a few rules without needing to bring out the Decisions book.
As to your still not being sure, you would be on solid ground to tell your FC he could pick up the incorrectly dropped ball and go search for his original, provided he hadn't yet made a stroke at it. 20-6 is for the correction of errors before it's too late. The Decisions you were looking at don't apply here because they are not about incorrect drops. In 27-1/2, the second ball is dropped at the correct spot in accordance with Rule 27-1 and is in play - there was no error to correct under Rule 20-6. Decision 27-2a/2 is about the same sort of situation - the player plays a second ball from the correct place under Rule 27-1 (even though he wrongly thinks he is playing a provisional). Again there is no error to put right.
In the situation under discussion, the player did not drop in accordance with any Rule and is allowed a chance to rescue himself from penalty by lifting and proceeding correctly.
In summary, if you drop, place or replace correctly under an applicable rule (even if you think you are proceeding under a different rule), you are committed. If you drop, place or replace incorrectly, you get a chance to put the mistake right before you make a stroke. In that situation, you are only committed once you've played the ball.
MashieNiblick
Tour Winner
Thanks guys that's really helpful.
