How would you penalise this guy (if at all?)

[Paul_Stewart]

Guy plays his second shot on a par four over a water hazard some 70 yards from the green. On approaching the hazard, he says "I'm probably in the water so I'll hit a provisional from here" and does so before anyone can stop him. He then walks round the hazard, finds his original ball some 30 yards over the hazard in the rough and pitches on to the green.

The other two players in his group pick him up on trying to hit a provisional in that situation as he had no idea where his ball was.

The other kicker was that he had four holes earlier, really gone off at one of the other players who had clearly hit his ball into a lateral hazard claiming that he could not be sure it was in there and hence had to play three off the tee (the key phrase there of course is "virtually certain".

So the rules question is, does he incur a penalty for that playing of a provisional?

In terms of his score it became a moot point as he pissed the other two players off so badly that he walked in a hole later realising the atmosphere was totally hostile towards him.

 

[beggsy]

He would of got a slap off me never mind a penalty

 

[rosecott]

Since he clearly knows very little about the rules, I would have him for practising on the course.

 

[CliveW]

A provisional can only be played from where the original ball was played and it must be played before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball. If it is reasonably certain that the original ball is lost in a water hazard, the you cannot play a provisional ball. (Rule 27-2)
He therefore didn't hit a provisional, but as soon as he dropped the other ball, it became the ball in play under penalty and the other ball was lost. If the ball wasn't dropped in a straight line from the flag and where the original ball first crossed the hazard, the he would incur a further penalty for dropping in the wrong place.

 

[Colin L]

That's a stotter!
Firstly when he played this so-called "provisional", it wasn't a provisional of course. But it did become the ball in play, incorrectly substituted and played from a wrong place. That's 2 penalty strokes and he should play out the hole with that ball. When he played this substituted ball, his original ball was rendered out of play, so when he played the original ball, he played a wrong ball. Another 2 stroke penalty but he was obliged to rectify the error by then playing out with the correct ball, the one in play - that's back to the wrongly substituted one. Are you still with me? :mmm: If he didn't, he would be disqualified. In match play, he would have lost the hole when he made a stroke at the wrongly substituted ball.

 

[backwoodsman]

The way the OP is phrased, it suggests that the player played the shot from 70yds out, then approached the water hazard, decided the ball is in it and played a "provisional" from the new spot ??

He can't play a provisional as he's no longer at the point from where a provisional can be played. And if a ball may be lost in a hazard, then the provisional ball rule doesn't apply anyway. I think he substituted a ball in the wrong place and therefore decision 26-1/3 applies. The substituted ball becomes the ball in play. Quoting from the decisions "In match play, he incurs a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b). In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule (Rule 20-7c). If the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in Rule 20-7c".

But given that he reverted to the original ball, I think its just a straight DQ

 

[rulefan]

Depending on how much nearer he was to the water hazard when he played the 'non-provisional' and with not correcting it he could be in serious breach with a DQ.

 

[duncan mackie]

That's a stotter!
Firstly when he played this so-called "provisional", it wasn't a provisional of course. But it did become the ball in play, incorrectly substituted and played from a wrong place. That's 2 penalty strokes and he should play out the hole with that ball. When he played this substituted ball, his original ball was rendered out of play, so when he played the original ball, he played a wrong ball. Another 2 stroke penalty but he was obliged to rectify the error by then playing out with the correct ball, the one in play - that's back to the wrongly substituted one. Are you still with me? :mmm: If he didn't, he would be disqualified. In match play, he would have lost the hole when he made a stroke at the wrongly substituted ball.

:thup: with the additional element rulefan has added...

 

[Colin L]

Yes, of course. And from the description it seems highly likely that it would be a serious breach.

 

[Ian_S]

That's a stotter!
Firstly when he played this so-called "provisional", it wasn't a provisional of course. But it did become the ball in play, incorrectly substituted and played from a wrong place. That's 2 penalty strokes and he should play out the hole with that ball. When he played this substituted ball, his original ball was rendered out of play, so when he played the original ball, he played a wrong ball. Another 2 stroke penalty but he was obliged to rectify the error by then playing out with the correct ball, the one in play - that's back to the wrongly substituted one. Are you still with me? :mmm: If he didn't, he would be disqualified. In match play, he would have lost the hole when he made a stroke at the wrongly substituted ball.

You lost me. So he hits ball A towards the hazard. As he approaches, he drops ball B (incorrectly and gets 2 stroke penalty). He then walks round and plays ball A, again incorrectly and incurring another 2 stroke penalty. Now, which ball is he obliged to finish the ball with, A or B?

 

[Paul_Stewart]

Cheers guys - as I thought you'd appreciate, this was a real cracker. I forgot to also add that once he got pulled up for his various misdemeanours, he started the old "I'm only playing for fun", "you don't need to be so serious" and "I'm not a rules buff" defense.

 

[Colin L]

You lost me. So he hits ball A towards the hazard. As he approaches, he drops ball B (incorrectly and gets 2 stroke penalty). He then walks round and plays ball A, again incorrectly and incurring another 2 stroke penalty. Now, which ball is he obliged to finish the ball with, A or B?

B. When he dropped ball B and played it, it became the ball in play which he should have holed out with. Ball A is now out of play and is just like any old ball left lying around so that when he played it, he played a wrong ball. If you play a wrong ball you must correct that mistake by going back to play the correct ball, in this case B.

 

[chrisd]

Cheers guys - as I thought you'd appreciate, this was a real cracker. I forgot to also add that once he got pulled up for his various misdemeanours, he started the old "I'm only playing for fun", "you don't need to be so serious" and "I'm not a rules buff" defense.

Why didn't you tell us that in the first place?

That makes it all ok then

 

[MashieNiblick]

What a mess.

Can I just check one thing. CliveW said

He therefore didn't hit a provisional, but as soon as he dropped the other ball, it became the ball in play under penalty and the other ball was lost.

However am I right in thinking that at that point he could have realised or been advised that he was proceeding incorrectly and picked up the wrongly dropped ball and proceed correctly, without penalty, under Rule 20-6, providing he hadn't made a stroke at it.

 

[Ian_S]

B. When he dropped ball B and played it, it became the ball in play which he should have holed out with. Ball A is now out of play and is just like any old ball left lying around so that when he played it, he played a wrong ball. If you play a wrong ball you must correct that mistake by going back to play the correct ball, in this case B.

Cheers, thanks for clearing that up. So technically he NR'd that hole as he never holed out the in-play ball.

 

[rulefan]

What a mess.

Can I just check one thing. CliveW said

However am I right in thinking that at that point he could have realised or been advised that he was proceeding incorrectly and picked up the wrongly dropped ball and proceed correctly, without penalty, under Rule 20-6, providing he hadn't made a stroke at it.

Correct.

 

[CliveW]

What a mess.

Can I just check one thing. CliveW said



However am I right in thinking that at that point he could have realised or been advised that he was proceeding incorrectly and picked up the wrongly dropped ball and proceed correctly, without penalty, under Rule 20-6, providing he hadn't made a stroke at it.

I don't think so. Rule 20-6 relates to ball in play, (if you are taking relief from an unplayable lie etc.) not the substituted ball, as the original one is deemed "lost" as soon as the substitued ball touches the ground, so once dropped, the original is out of play.

 

[rulefan]

I don't think so. Rule 20-6 relates to ball in play, (if you are taking relief from an unplayable lie etc.) not the substituted ball, as the original one is deemed "lost" as soon as the substitued ball touches the ground, so once dropped, the original is out of play.

20-6 relates to lifting a ball incorrectly substituted. When he dropped the ball under 27-2a he was proceeding under an inapplicable rule. If he was not permitted to correct his error he would immediately lose the hole in matchplay or get a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play.

See 20-6/1

 

[CliveW]

20-6 relates to lifting a ball incorrectly substituted. When he dropped the ball under 27-2a he was proceeding under an inapplicable rule. If he was not permitted to correct his error he would immediately lose the hole in matchplay or get a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play.

See 20-6/1

I agree, so rule 20-6 is not applicable to the original scenario.

 

[Colin L]

I agree, so rule 20-6 is not applicable to the original scenario.

20-6 is applicable, as MashieNiblick was asking, at the point where the player dropped his ball. It doesn't matter what rule he thought he was applying if he realised or was advised that he was making a mistake he could lift the incorrectly subsituted ball without penalty, provided he had not played it.