How many penalty strokes to be added

[oltimer]

Player hits tee shot into water hazard from where a penalty drop has to be taken by using a dropping zone.

Drops ball in the dz and it runs out of dz a couple of feet (less than 2 club lengths) towards the hole, trying to be honest he picks the ball up and re-drops it, again in the dz and again it runs out towards the hole a couple of feet, he then picks it up and places it in the dz where its drop impact point was , then plays it.

with pen strokes for picking up a ball in play and placing it when drop required does he get just two pen strokes or multiple penalties for every incorrect procedure ?

 

[pogle]

Personally I would consider all these to be related acts resulting in one rule being breached multiple times and therefore give the player a single two stroke penalty (in addition to the 1PS for the water hazard).

Decision 1-4/12 is a doozy and gives various combinations of related and unrelated acts together with one or multiple rules broken. (http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-01,d1-4-12 )

If the player put his stroke from the DZ into the water and went through the same procedure again, he would incur another two stroke penalty as there has been an "intervening event" i.e. his stroke.

 

[anotherdouble]

Don't see what he has done wrong to incur any further penalties other than for dropping from hazard

 

[williamalex1]

Replaced drops don't count , so he's playing his 3rd stroke from the DZ. I think.

 

[pogle]

If you use a dropping zone then the ball doesn't have to be re-dropped if it rolls outside the drop zone. It only needs to be re-dropped if it rolls more than two clubs or rolls to a point closer to the hole than where it last crossed the hazard. Therefore he should have played the ball from where it first came to rest.

When he lifted it he incurred a further one penalty stroke and should have replaced it but he didn't he dropped it thereby turning the extra one penalty into two extra penalty strokes.

 

[rulefan]

Player hits tee shot into water hazard from where a penalty drop has to be taken by using a dropping zone.

Drops ball in the dz and it runs out of dz a couple of feet (less than 2 club lengths) towards the hole, trying to be honest he picks the ball up and re-drops it, again in the dz and again it runs out towards the hole a couple of feet, he then picks it up and places it in the dz where its drop impact point was , then plays it.

with pen strokes for picking up a ball in play and placing it when drop required does he get just two pen strokes or multiple penalties for every incorrect procedure ?[/QUOTE

Note: When using a dropping zone the following provisions apply regarding the dropping and re-dropping of the ball:

(a) The player does not have to stand within the dropping zone when dropping the ball.

(b) The dropped ball must first strike a part of the course within the dropping zone.

(c) If the dropping zone is defined by a line, the line is within the dropping zone.

(d) The dropped ball does not have to come to rest within the dropping zone.

(e) The dropped ball must be re-dropped if it rolls and comes to rest in a position covered by Rule 20-2c(i-vi).

(f) The dropped ball may roll nearer the hole than the spot where it first struck a part of the course, provided it comes to rest within two club-lengths of that spot and not into any of the positions covered by (e).

(g) Subject to the provisions of (e) and (f), the dropped ball may roll and come to rest nearer the hole than:

• its original position or estimated position (see Rule 20-2b);
• the nearest point of relief or maximum available relief (Rule 24-2, 25-1 or 25-3); or
• the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or lateral water hazard (Rule 26-1).

 

[anotherdouble]

That's me told.

 

[Colin L]

When dropping in a DZ, the ball may end up nearer the hole provided it doesn't roll more than 2 club lengths. After his first drop, the player's ball was in play and he breached Rule 18-2 by lifting it and because he did not replace it, he is penalised 2 strokes. He then repeated his mistake and Oltimer's question is whether he is penalised separately for each breach of 18-2 [4 penalty strokes] or whether it is a case of multiple breaches of the same rule and subject to only one penalty of 2 strokes.

To me it's a repeat of the same breach but separate, leading to 4 penalty strokes, but to be honest I'm not sure and would need to consult before making a ruling.

 

[pogle]

I was guided by the example in Decision 1-4/12 of a player making two practice swings in a bunker grounding his club both times. We're told this is a single two stroke penalty; however if the player makes a stroke after the first practice swing, leaves the ball in the bunker and then repeats his grounding the club it becomes two two stroke penalties because of the intervening stroke.

It may be that the player's re-drop would be considered a break point from the first mistake leading to a further two stroke penalty. I'd be interested to hear other views.

 

[Colin L]

It may be that the player's re-drop would be considered a break point from the first mistake leading to a further two stroke penalty. I'd be interested to hear other views.

Exactly the point in question. We'll get an answer to you later.

 

[rulefan]

The official ruling is [h=4]1-4/12 3. Related Acts Result in One Rule Being Breached More Than Once - Single Penalty Applied[/h]

 

[rulie]

Exactly the point in question. We'll get an answer to you later.

Imo, this player has played from a wrong place and incurs a total penalty of three strokes (one for water hazard - Rule 26-1 and two for playing from a wrong place - Rule 20-7c/Rule 18-2) - see Note 3 to Rule 20-7c for the "quantity discount" on penalties.

 

[rulefan]

Imo, this player has played from a wrong place and incurs a total penalty of three strokes (one for water hazard - Rule 26-1 and two for playing from a wrong place - Rule 20-7c/Rule 18-2) - see Note 3 to Rule 20-7c for the "quantity discount" on penalties.

Where does note 3 come in?

 

[Colin L]

Imo, this player has played from a wrong place and incurs a total penalty of three strokes (one for water hazard - Rule 26-1 and two for playing from a wrong place - Rule 20-7c/Rule 18-2) - see Note 3 to Rule 20-7c for the "quantity discount" on penalties.

Failure to replace the ball after moving it is penalised 2 strokes under the general penalty for a breach of Rule 18 (see the penalty statement below 18-6). The player has, of course, played from a wrong place but I would say that Rule 18 is the applicable rule. He also incurs the one stroke penalty for relief from the water hazard, as you say.

 

[rulie]

Where does note 3 come in?

Imo, the player has played from a wrong place - the correct place was where the ball came to rest after the first drop. Playing from a wrong place in stroke play is covered in Rule 20-7c, but the penalty is applied under the applicable Rule, 18-2 in this case.
In essence, the general penalty of 18-2 is for playing from a wrong place; whether a serious breach of 18-2 has occurred must always be considered as per 20-7c.

 

[rulefan]

Imo, the player has played from a wrong place - the correct place was where the ball came to rest after the first drop. Playing from a wrong place in stroke play is covered in Rule 20-7c, but the penalty is applied under the applicable Rule, 18-2 in this case.
In essence, the general penalty of 18-2 is for playing from a wrong place; whether a serious breach of 18-2 has occurred must always be considered as per 20-7c.

But what has note 3 got to do with it?

 

[rulie]

But what has note 3 got to do with it?

Note 3 to Rule 20-7c says that if the player incurs a penalty for playing from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for
- substituting a ball when not permitted
- dropping a ball when the Rules require it to be placed, or placing a ball when the Rules require it to be dropped
- dropping a ball in an improper manner, or
- a ball being put into play by a person not permitted to do so under the Rules.

So, for the player in question, there is no additional penalty strokes for placing the ball at the wrong spot.

 

[bladeplayer]

Everydays a school day , can i please ask , whats the reasoning behind it being ok for the ball to roll closer to the hole ?
Thanks

 

[pogle]

Everydays a school day , can i please ask , whats the reasoning behind it being ok for the ball to roll closer to the hole ?
Thanks

The ball can roll closer to the hole so long as it doesn't finish closer to the hole than where it last crossed the margin of the hazard. If you think about the case where you go back as far as you like, the player can retreat for example fifty yards from the water hazard , then it would be strange to ask him to redrop if the ball bounced forwards an inch.

I've found that a significant number of players believe it can't go forwards and I've had to stop them from picking the ball up and incurring a further penalty.

 

[rulefan]

Note 3 to Rule 20-7c says that if the player incurs a penalty for playing from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for
- substituting a ball when not permitted
- dropping a ball when the Rules require it to be placed, or placing a ball when the Rules require it to be dropped
- dropping a ball in an improper manner, or
- a ball being put into play by a person not permitted to do so under the Rules.

So, for the player in question, there is no additional penalty strokes for placing the ball at the wrong spot.

Those words don't appear in note 3