How long is too long?

[Robobum]

That par 3 @ Oakmont when Cabrerra won was played at 305yds on one day!! Quite a few layed up and tried to chip & putt for par.

For me holes should PLAY no longer than:

Par 3: 225yds
Par 4: 475yds
Par 5: 600yds

I say "play" because a severe downhill hole can be long but actually be fairly comfortable whereas the opposite applies if you are playing up the north face of the Eiger!!

 

[Smigger79]

The third at my course is 712 off the whites which is definatley too long in my opinion. I was told it used to be a par 6.

 

[RGDave]

There used to be a rule of thumb, but that's long since died.

i.m.o. there's no reason for not making holes any length you want, as long as pro players can reach.

As for the rest of us.....unless a hole is considerably downhill, I'd put a limit of

220/460/580 or something.

The trouble is, some courses simply make their holes too long and clearly have no idea of how "un-fun" it makes the course. I've played monsters where I can't get anywhere near 14/18 holes and walk off with a 90 hardly having put a foot wrong.

I like the idea of simply using the SSS as the "overall par" for me. If I play a course that is par 70 SSS 72, then I'm happy to play to 14 off a h'cap of 12. I'm sure you get my drift.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I think there is a world of differnce between what makes a challenging par 3 or 4 for the pros compared to joe average like me. 300 yards as a par 3 - are you kidding. Thats a drive and a sand wedge at least (on a good day). I'm not sure even a pro can average 300 yards all the time (look at the stats most are around 270-280 AVERAGE) and so its not even fair on them.

Do we really want to see top golfers bombing drivers on every hole just to try and get home. One thing the Open and Seniors Open shows year in year yout is that you don't have to be a bomber to win. YOu need to be able to think your way around.

Personally I think course can be made much harder by making the rough more penal, especially with the groove changes next year and making bunkers more of a hazard instead of a bail out area.

 

[rgs]

I love to see the pros playing short par 3 and par 4.
Look at the 17th sawgrass 135 yds over water causes havoc.
The postage stamp hole another example of a short par 3 which can cause problems.
max distance for pros--250 par 3, 500 par 4 and 650 par 5.

 

[JustOne]

The third at my course is 712 off the whites which is definatley too long in my opinion. I was told it used to be a par 6.

Looks like a pretty decent course. Once all those baby trees grow up it'll be tough as old boots.

Is it a fairly new course?

 

[Smiffy]

The third at my course is 712 off the whites which is definatley too long in my opinion. I was told it used to be a par 6.

Just had a look. That's a long 'un....

What are the "pop" bunkers by the green though? (as in the hole description). Do they serve lemonade in them???

 

[CrapHacker]

The third at my course is 712 off the whites which is definatley too long in my opinion. I was told it used to be a par 6.

Looks like a pretty decent course. Once all those baby trees grow up it'll be tough as old boots.

Is it a fairly new course?

As far as I'm concerned, a hole should be physically simple enough to par, but maybe needing a little bit of thinking. It should also be damned hard to birdie ( risk /reward ratios, placing traps in subtle positions, tricky greens, tough rough etc ).

For me that means that, with my handicap, I should be able to par a hole if I play it really well, but shouldn't have too much trouble making a bogey, unless I cock up any individual shot.

For a pro, they should be able to hit the green in two on a par 4, but only hit the green of a par 5 in two with a couple of perfect blows.

Say for me, a ( perfect ) drive should be 230 yards, and a 5w 190ish. So 3 perfect shots and I'm maxing out at 610. Our imaginary pro can hit it 600 yards in two mighty swipes.

So I can see the justification for a 600 yard par 5. Over 700 yards is punitive golf.

Not what the game is all about imho.

 

[Smigger79]

It opened in 2000 so yes it's fairly new. Me and my mate were commenting the other day how different a prospect it will be once the trees grow.
I've parred the 3rd once off the whites but you're relying on getting close with your 4th shot, even three of my best shots don't get me to the green.

 

[RGDave]

As far as I'm concerned, a hole should be physically simple enough to par, but maybe needing a little bit of thinking. It should also be damned hard to birdie ( risk /reward ratios, placing traps in subtle positions, tricky greens, tough rough etc ).

For me that means that, with my handicap, I should be able to par a hole if I play it really well, but shouldn't have too much trouble making a bogey, unless I cock up any individual shot.

Good thoughts.

What I hate is long holes that have all the trouble in the wrong places for an amateur, but I suspect this might be down to technology overtaking course design.

I'll give you a perfect example. At the other course in my town, there is a long par 4 with a slight dog leg left. i.i.r.c. it's about 440 off yellow and 455 of white.
1) the fairway bunkers are right and left at 210-220.....a problem to carry these for regular players, a "given" for the 250-275 drivers??? then
2) There is a bunker slap bang in the middle of the fairway at about 400-ish, a huge, centre cut hazard??

So, mostly it proves no problem if you miss the fairway bunkers. But, the lay-up is almost impossible. Usually, I have 200-ish to the front, lesser players maybe more. But, the big hitters have nothing to think about at all.

I say, make a hole as long as you like, but designers and course managers need to give everyday players an option to play 3 shots to the green. I tend to play 5w/6i/wedge to this hole, but it doesn't need to be this exacting.

Thankfully, we don't have stupid stuff like this at mine.

 

[JustOne]

I'll give you a perfect example. At the other course in my town, there is a long par 4 with a slight dog leg left. i.i.r.c. it's about 440 off yellow and 455 of white.
1) the fairway bunkers are right and left at 210-220.....a problem to carry these for regular players, a "given" for the 250-275 drivers??? then
2) There is a bunker slap bang in the middle of the fairway at about 400-ish, a huge, centre cut hazard??

So, mostly it proves no problem if you miss the fairway bunkers. But, the lay-up is almost impossible. Usually, I have 200-ish to the front, lesser players maybe more. But, the big hitters have nothing to think about at all.

Ummm.... sounds like a good hole to me

 

[Kaizer_Soze]

Not sure if it's still in force but certainly used to be -

up to 245 yards is par 3
246 - 475 par 4
476 + par 5

all this par 6 + hole length is utter nonsense as far as I'm concerned.

 

[RGDave]

I'll give you a perfect example. At the other course in my town, there is a long par 4 with a slight dog leg left. i.i.r.c. it's about 440 off yellow and 455 of white.
1) the fairway bunkers are right and left at 210-220.....a problem to carry these for regular players, a "given" for the 250-275 drivers??? then
2) There is a bunker slap bang in the middle of the fairway at about 400-ish, a huge, centre cut hazard??

So, mostly it proves no problem if you miss the fairway bunkers. But, the lay-up is almost impossible. Usually, I have 200-ish to the front, lesser players maybe more. But, the big hitters have nothing to think about at all.

Ummm.... sounds like a good hole to me

Yes, it's quite a good hole but the challenge is almost too much for the average player and too little for the big boys.

A well designed hole can suit all types of players. I sometimes play at Little Aston

http://www.littleastongolf.co.uk/index.l...279C5xHVo161A26

and despite it's reputation is very fair - it's just rather difficult for the scratch players!