How long is 5 minutes?

[MarkE]

I don't think I've ever searched for the full 5 mins. Couple of minutes tops, even in comps. Lifes too short

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I've posted about it before but this situation caused serious arguments in the local Rabbits league two years ago.

Two teams A & B (four man teams, all stableford scores count) tied on 144 points with the scores posted. Captain from team A gets taken outside and is spoken to... voices start raising... he storms in saying it's a disgrace, his team are pulling out of the league next year, etc etc.

Turns out that captain of team A had teed off on a par 5, lost it, gone back, three off the tee, but then found his first on the way back down. He played the original ball and made par, on a two shot hole. Handed in that score card, signed.

He was DQed, dropping his team from first to last, and losing his own score which was the highest of the day by any player and thus any captain, meaning he went from winning two personal prizes and a team prize to winning nothing.

His team tried to argue that:

1: It wasn't a rule in the first place.
2: Even if it was, the punishment would be loss of score on that hole, and thus they'd at very least be second.

And then most incredibly...

3: "It's the rabbits, you've all broken some rules during the season and you know you have, we drew this fair and square and we deserve the trophy that we've earned."

As a member of Team B, it was a horrible way to be handed the trophy, amidst scattered applause and the disgruntled moans of team A where their captain refused to even be present for the trophy being awared to us.

I think as he has signed his card for the wrong score on the hole, and hence for the round, he is DQd. If he'd spotted or agreed to his mistake before tee'ing off on the next hole (after completing the hole of contention) then he'd have just lost the points scored for that hole. I think

 

[Ethan]

I've posted about it before but this situation caused serious arguments in the local Rabbits league two years ago.

Two teams A & B (four man teams, all stableford scores count) tied on 144 points with the scores posted. Captain from team A gets taken outside and is spoken to... voices start raising... he storms in saying it's a disgrace, his team are pulling out of the league next year, etc etc.

Turns out that captain of team A had teed off on a par 5, lost it, gone back, three off the tee, but then found his first on the way back down. He played the original ball and made par, on a two shot hole. Handed in that score card, signed.

He was DQed, dropping his team from first to last, and losing his own score which was the highest of the day by any player and thus any captain, meaning he went from winning two personal prizes and a team prize to winning nothing.

His team tried to argue that:

1: It wasn't a rule in the first place.
2: Even if it was, the punishment would be loss of score on that hole, and thus they'd at very least be second.

And then most incredibly...

3: "It's the rabbits, you've all broken some rules during the season and you know you have, we drew this fair and square and we deserve the trophy that we've earned."

As a member of Team B, it was a horrible way to be handed the trophy, amidst scattered applause and the disgruntled moans of team A where their captain refused to even be present for the trophy being awared to us.

Not surprised that he and his team were unhappy but the committee acted quite correctly and had no discretion to do anything else.

 

[Kellfire]

I think as he has signed his card for the wrong score on the hole, and hence for the round, he is DQd. If he'd spotted or agreed to his mistake before tee'ing off on the next hole (after completing the hole of contention) then he'd have just lost the points scored for that hole. I think

Oh absolutely, everyone in the room but the guilty party himself and his team were aware of all the options he had and that he had to be DQed. It was a sad end for their competition but to handle like a petulant child was completely the wrong way. He was openly asked for the rules to be ignored because of his claim that others had broken that rule and others all season because they're rabbits.

 

[ManinBlack]

As I understand it the FCs wer adamant that the full 5 minutes had bee used up looking for the ball and that, when he found it, he was well over the time. He didn't argue when seen by the rules officials. By the way, he finished 3rd, two shots off the winning score. and he was 15 years old and shot 70, 80, 74, 69 in difficult conditions.

 

[woody69]

As I understand it the FCs wer adamant that the full 5 minutes had bee used up looking for the ball and that, when he found it, he was well over the time. He didn't argue when seen by the rules officials. By the way, he finished 3rd, two shots off the winning score. and he was 15 years old and shot 70, 80, 74, 69 in difficult conditions.

Perhaps it's nothing, but it seems to me the other FCs just weren't happy losing to a 15 year old. Wonder if he felt intimidated by their insistence he was outside 5 minutes? I hope it doesn't leave a sour taste in his mouth.

 

[Sats]

I don't think I've ever searched for the full 5 mins. Couple of minutes tops, even in comps. Lifes too short

Agreed, it's only a game after all.

 

[pbrown7582]

Often to save time and not to hold up people behind, I've had FC's say go back and play a provisional and we'll keep looking.
From what's posted earlier it seems this is not allowed.

THATS WHERE I GOT CONFUSED. CLEARED UP NOW THANSK :thup:

 

[ManinBlack]

Perhaps it's nothing, but it seems to me the other FCs just weren't happy losing to a 15 year old. Wonder if he felt intimidated by their insistence he was outside 5 minutes? I hope it doesn't leave a sour taste in his mouth.

Don't think that was the case. From what I heard there was no doubt that at least 5 minutes had been spent looking for the ball.

 

[ManinBlack]

As usual, this post has digressed. The point I was making was that the fact that there was a debate over how long the search lasted meant that no one knew for sure. and this is at county level. Unlikely that the rule is observed any more strictly lower down.

 

[shortstuff]

At out County Championship the other week a competitor couldn't find his tee shot at the 18th. They looked around for it and then the player started back to the tee to play another. On his way back he found his ball. He discussed the situation with his fellow competitors & they said his 5 minutes were up & he'd have to play three off the tee. He disagreed & finished up playing both balls, seeking a decision at the end of the round. The officials told him that the only people who could decide the matter were him & his two FCs. The FCs insisted he had looked for 5 minutes so he was told to take the stroke & distance penalty.

Now the rule says "five minutes" not "about 5 minutes" it's a matter of fact, not opinion. It is obvious that none of the competitors timed the search so how could they decided when 5 minutes was up? Even in club competitions, if I can't find my ball, I set the stopwatch on my phone. There is no other way of complying with the rule.

I spoke to one of the rules officials about this & he confessed that when he went out to play he never took a watch with him. He's probably not the only one by any means.

How many other people don't comply with this rule? Do the pros observe it scrupulously? What do you do?

I do take a quick glance at the watch when the search commences. It's not nice but you have to call time after 5/6 mins, otherwise it turns into 10-15 mins.

 

[woody69]

I do take a quick glance at the watch when the search commences. It's not nice but you have to call time after 5/6 mins, otherwise it turns into 10-15 mins.

10-15 minutes searching for a ball? That is insane!

 

[delc]

Surely in the OP instance the 5 mins is irrelevant as Player had started back to play another ball thought if you did this you couldn't continue with original ball?

5mins is quite varying from search to search and very few know exactly if the ball is found within time. More and more timer appearing to buy for people to
Track more closely.

There is nothing in the Rules mentioning ceasing to search. A ball is lost if not found within 5 minutes, another ball has been put into play within the rules, or a provisional ball has been played from a position nearer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be.

 

[woody69]

There is nothing in the Rules mentioning ceasing to search. A ball is lost if not found within 5 minutes, another ball has been put into play within the rules, or a provisional ball has been played from a position nearer to the hole than where the original ball is likely to be.

Thanks for clarifying Delc. Can always count on you

 

[pogle]

In my experience as a referee, players are a very poor judge of how long five minutes is. Left to themselves, I'm sure most players would think that their five minutes were up after only 2-3 minutes. 5 minutes really is a loooong time.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In my experience as a referee, players are a very poor judge of how long five minutes is. Left to themselves, I'm sure most players would think that their five minutes were up after only 2-3 minutes. 5 minutes really is a loooong time.

one-one thousand; two-one thousand; three-one thousand....two hundred and ninetynine-one thousand; three hundred-one thousand. Sorted.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I'm another who never times a search. I know I should but I don't. In the OP I think it must have been marginal and I don't think the FC's should have had a say in the outcome as there was no way of proving either way

 

[mab]

I'd be very disappointed if FCs didn't allow me to play my found ball in this situation... but that is perhaps because I never spend 5 mins looking for a ball.

IMO, without proof (i.e. one of the FCs had timed it on their watch), then the FCs have no authority to force a 3 off the tee and I'd likely have been very transparent in my thinking... perhaps with a little swearing... and played my found ball regardless.

The only exception to the above where I think the FCs actions may have been appropriate is if the player in question had genuinely taken ages looking for his ball with FCs helping, i.e. it wasn't somewhere around 5 mins with an inclination it may been a little over but way over where the player in question was taking the micky.

 

[ManinBlack]

I'd be very disappointed if FCs didn't allow me to play my found ball in this situation... but that is perhaps because I never spend 5 mins looking for a ball.

IMO, without proof (i.e. one of the FCs had timed it on their watch), then the FCs have no authority to force a 3 off the tee and I'd likely have been very transparent in my thinking... perhaps with a little swearing... and played my found ball regardless.

The only exception to the above where I think the FCs actions may have been appropriate is if the player in question had genuinely taken ages looking for his ball with FCs helping, i.e. it wasn't somewhere around 5 mins with an inclination it may been a little over but way over where the player in question was taking the micky.

Missing the point again. A County Championship & nobody was in a position to say for sure how long the player looked for his ball. It's a matter of fact, not opinion.