How long is 5 minutes?

[ManinBlack]

At out County Championship the other week a competitor couldn't find his tee shot at the 18th. They looked around for it and then the player started back to the tee to play another. On his way back he found his ball. He discussed the situation with his fellow competitors & they said his 5 minutes were up & he'd have to play three off the tee. He disagreed & finished up playing both balls, seeking a decision at the end of the round. The officials told him that the only people who could decide the matter were him & his two FCs. The FCs insisted he had looked for 5 minutes so he was told to take the stroke & distance penalty.

Now the rule says "five minutes" not "about 5 minutes" it's a matter of fact, not opinion. It is obvious that none of the competitors timed the search so how could they decided when 5 minutes was up? Even in club competitions, if I can't find my ball, I set the stopwatch on my phone. There is no other way of complying with the rule.

I spoke to one of the rules officials about this & he confessed that when he went out to play he never took a watch with him. He's probably not the only one by any means.

How many other people don't comply with this rule? Do the pros observe it scrupulously? What do you do?

 

[woody69]

I suspect most just guess. I am sure some people start a stop watch, but I would suspect they are in the minority. Plus it's 5 minutes when you start looking isn't it?

I think the FCs in your example were a little on the draconian side. If it really is that tight that one is convinced he is still within the allotted time and they are just guessing then I'd have said fair enough.

Question I have though, is it fair though that the 2 FCs had a say over the penalty or not? Surely it is up to the player to make the decision "within the spirit of the game". Not sure why the majority, who are direct competitors get to say it's a penalty.

 

[Break90]

Mostly guesswork I would think, with a healthy sprinkling of 'it depends how close the group behind are'.

My new trolley has a timer built in, but I can't say ive ever used it.......

 

[pbrown7582]

Surely in the OP instance the 5 mins is irrelevant as Player had started back to play another ball thought if you did this you couldn't continue with original ball?

5mins is quite varying from search to search and very few know exactly if the ball is found within time. More and more timer appearing to buy for people to
Track more closely.

 

[Imurg]

A stopwatch should be used every time a search for a ball begins...every time.

How many times does it happened ...?
I'll guess virtually never.!

Let's face it.if you haven't found your ball within a couple of minutes then even if you do find it you're probably not going to be able to play it....
Move on

 

[Imurg]

Surely in the OP instance the 5 mins is irrelevant as Player had started back to play another ball thought if you did this you couldn't continue with original ball?

You can be back on the tee and about to swing but if your ball is found within the 5 minutes you're OK.
As long as you haven't made a stroke at another ball

 

[bladeplayer]

Surely in the OP instance the 5 mins is irrelevant as Player had started back to play another ball thought if you did this you couldn't continue with original ball?

5mins is quite varying from search to search and very few know exactly if the ball is found within time. More and more timer appearing to buy for people to
Track more closely.

My understanding is you cant go back & play a provisional, (slight change to this rule last time out to allow a small distance from the tee as acceptable ) ,
but if you are heading back & the ball is found within the 5 min, before you hit your next tee shot its ok .. the original is found & must be played

If you do go back from fairway The min you hit your second tee shot the first ball is now out of play , and even if it has been found within the 5 mins it is no longer the ball in play.


Hopefully some of the rules experts can clarify this ..

As per the OP i have never used a watch or clock to time a search , or cant say i have seen any1 do it even in inter club matches



EDIT .. or as Imurg said .. quicker fingers Ian :thup:

 

[Slab]

As mentioned its either the 5 minutes elapsing or making a stroke at a ball from the tee that makes your original tee shot 'lost'
(different situation if its not a tee shot and you're going back to where you played your 2nd from the fairway etc, as its 5 minutes after search starts or the point when the new ball is dropped that the original becomes 'lost' and not when you make a stroke at it)

 

[Slab]

As for the 5 minutes I believe I normally look for around 3 maybe 4 if I think it should be findable but i've never timed it and humans can be quite poor at gauging the passage of time (just listen to those who think they've been waiting on the tee for 5 minutes behind a slower group)

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Often to save time and not to hold up people behind, I've had FC's say go back and play a provisional and we'll keep looking.
From what's posted earlier it seems this is not allowed.

 

[MendieGK]

Often to save time and not to hold up people behind, I've had FC's say go back and play a provisional and we'll keep looking.
From what's posted earlier it seems this is not allowed.

When I was a junior I won and subsequently DQd myself from the junior club champs because I did this. One rule I will now always remember

 

[rosecott]

Often to save time and not to hold up people behind, I've had FC's say go back and play a provisional and we'll keep looking.
From what's posted earlier it seems this is not allowed.

That is correct. It has to be declared a provisional and played before going forward to search.

 

[Slab]

When I was a junior I won and subsequently DQd myself from the junior club champs because I did this. One rule I will now always remember

What happened, did you take a hit at the 2nd ball and then revert to playing the 1st one

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Surely in the OP instance the 5 mins is irrelevant as Player had started back to play another ball thought if you did this you couldn't continue with original ball?

5mins is quite varying from search to search and very few know exactly if the ball is found within time. More and more timer appearing to buy for people to
Track more closely.

On this remember that the player cannot declare his ball lost. The fact that he is walking towards the tee with the intention of putting another ball into play is I believe irrelevant. If his ball is found before he puts another into play, and within 5 minutes, then he can continue play with that ball. And yes - he cannot play a provisional when he reaches the tee - it would be a new ball and that action makes his new ball the ball in play - the original is now irrelevant.

The cut-off for the 5 mins is of course debatable unless you actually 'stop-watch' it. I think the player takes responsibility - his PPs can only comment on their observations to the comp organiser on completion of the round. Playing two balls (original and new ball in play) for that hole is a sensible risk mitigation in case the comp organiser find some reason to disbelieve his claim of 'found within 5mins'

 

[MendieGK]

What happened, did you take a hit at the 2nd ball and then revert to playing the 1st one

Yeah, walked back to tee, hit my shot. Straight after playing partners found my 1st ball. Carried on with 1st ball.

It all came up after the competition had finished and trophy been presented etc so I couldn't be DQ'd (I believe nothing can be done once completion has been closed or something like that) - so I DQd myself.

It was 15yrs ago so don't fully remember

 

[ScienceBoy]

I always default to the penalty if in doubt.

 

[Hobbit]

I always glance at my watch at the start of a search. As to the FC's saying your time's up, and the player saying no it isn't. The Comps Sec has to take the word of the competitor.

Same as if a marker refuses to sign a card because of what he feels is a rules infringement. If no supporting evidence is put forward the comp committee must accept the word of the competitor.

If memory serves...

 

[Ethan]

That is correct. It has to be declared a provisional and played before going forward to search.

There are a bunch of decisions on the ROG around when the opportunity to declare a provisional has been missed.

 

[ruff-driver]

Perhaps the club starter should issue a stopwatch to each group in the future .

 

[Kellfire]

When I was a junior I won and subsequently DQd myself from the junior club champs because I did this. One rule I will now always remember

I've posted about it before but this situation caused serious arguments in the local Rabbits league two years ago.

Two teams A & B (four man teams, all stableford scores count) tied on 144 points with the scores posted. Captain from team A gets taken outside and is spoken to... voices start raising... he storms in saying it's a disgrace, his team are pulling out of the league next year, etc etc.

Turns out that captain of team A had teed off on a par 5, lost it, gone back, three off the tee, but then found his first on the way back down. He played the original ball and made par, on a two shot hole. Handed in that score card, signed.

He was DQed, dropping his team from first to last, and losing his own score which was the highest of the day by any player and thus any captain, meaning he went from winning two personal prizes and a team prize to winning nothing.

His team tried to argue that:

1: It wasn't a rule in the first place.
2: Even if it was, the punishment would be loss of score on that hole, and thus they'd at very least be second.

And then most incredibly...

3: "It's the rabbits, you've all broken some rules during the season and you know you have, we drew this fair and square and we deserve the trophy that we've earned."

As a member of Team B, it was a horrible way to be handed the trophy, amidst scattered applause and the disgruntled moans of team A where their captain refused to even be present for the trophy being awared to us.