How do clubs become more sustainable

[DCB]

100% Golf clubs do have this stigma of them and us between juniors and adults. Also the number of women in clubs is limited, golf is very male orientated and again reduces the interest from girls. if clubs could find a way to encourage this i feel this could make a difference

Rather a sweeping statement is it not ?

At my Club we had a Junior go all the way to the semi final of The Club Championship this year. Our ladies are full members and as the Junior section is usually dominated by boys, any girls are soon welcomed in to play alongside the Ladies.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Stop banging on about etiquette and tradition'. It's a leisure time activity, not a Jane Austen novel.

Interesting thought - I view the etiquette and traditions of golf as central and key the delight and the interest of golf. But I can well imagine that for most newcomers to the game these things can seem arcane, stifling and archaic. This would suggest that they should be introduced gently as a new player gets to know the game - and not presented up front as the Commandments of Golf and a load of Thou Shalt Nots...

 

[User 105]

• Open the club up for the day. My old club decided to close the course from 9am - 3pm one day a couple of summers ago. It was free golf for prospective members, no matter what their ability was. They got members to assist with this by taking them out onto the course for a game, so if you had beginners then they would be kept moving and also to show them rules and etiquette. I was normally up in the morning when on nights so took a couple of lads out as the club wanted to try and attract younger members. The pro was out on the range giving free advice to people and the kitchen was giving out free samples of food. I think the club managed to sign up about 10 new members from this day, so it worked a treat for them.
  

That's what my place does. Also combined with this, if you sign up on the day they do a years membership for a £1. You still have to pay the joining fee. ~£1,300. That's why I ended up joining.

I wasn't going to pay £1300 to join and £1300 for membership.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Interesting thought - I view the etiquette and traditions of golf as central and key the delight and the interest of golf. But I can well imagine that for most newcomers to the game these things can seem arcane, stifling and archaic. This would suggest that they should be introduced gently as a new player gets to know the game - and not presented up front as the Commandments of Golf and a load of Thou Shalt Nots...

Exactly my thoughts. Of course the tradition part is part of the enjoyment and attraction for some, and fair enough. Also you want people to behave well on the course.

But I just worry as the rules of golf can be made to seem so complicated, and if newcomers, on top of having to learn how to hit the bloody ball, then have to worry about behaving correctly as per 'golfing etiquette' as well as not breaking some rule, of which there can seem to be many, then I imagine it will be quite off putting. Especially if this is one of the first things you come across.

To this day I still feel a little nervous myself about my doing something that could be considered as 'wrong', even though I have been playing golf for ages.

 

[cookelad]

Was talking to our head greenkeeper a couple of weeks ago about something similar, I said that I didn't join at first because I was only working in London on a 3 month temporary contract and for all I knew at the end of the contract I'd be heading back to the North West it was only when the job became 'permanent' that I became a member. Surely that's something that could be addressed after all clubs pro rata the subs when people join mid year so why not agree that someone could join for a period shorter than 12 months?

 

[FairwayDodger]

Rather a sweeping statement is it not ?

At my Club we had a Junior go all the way to the semi final of The Club Championship this year. Our ladies are full members and as the Junior section is usually dominated by boys, any girls are soon welcomed in to play alongside the Ladies.

It's a sweeping statement but more often than not quite true. Most clubs nowadays would say men and women are equal but, while the subs are usually the same, the "membership experience" can be quite different.

For example, as a female at many clubs there are a large number of days at the weekend through the season where you have no opportunity to play before late afternoon or evening due to the tee being fully booked for a men's competition. The opposite situation rarely, if ever, occurs. OK, that's a result of demographics not discrimination but considering a full-time worker who can only play at weekends the end result is if you are female you get a poorer deal for your membership.

 

[patricks148]

It's a sweeping statement but more often than not quite true. Most clubs nowadays would say men and women are equal but, while the subs are usually the same, the "membership experience" can be quite different.

For example, as a female at many clubs there are a large number of days at the weekend through the season where you have no opportunity to play before late afternoon or evening due to the tee being fully booked for a men's competition. The opposite situation rarely, if ever, occurs. OK, that's a result of demographics not discrimination but considering a full-time worker who can only play at weekends the end result is if you are female you get a poorer deal for your membership.

but like you say its a numbers game are you suggesting positive discrimination?

My club the only times ladies can't play is the main silver comps and they are usually done by lunchtime so ladies can play any sat when one of these is not on ( only 8 sat at most) they also have Tuesday as ladies day and there are block bookings for the comps. for instance 4.30 to 6.30 is closed to men on a tues. I can't ever remember seeing a single lady let alone 12 tee times worth going out then.

so if you have a typical club say like ours 1300 male and 200 female and the men have a full field every week for a medal on a Sat, should that club block times for those 200 in the middle of the comp, knowing full well that most of the female if any would turn up to play?

 

[fundy]

Was talking to our head greenkeeper a couple of weeks ago about something similar, I said that I didn't join at first because I was only working in London on a 3 month temporary contract and for all I knew at the end of the contract I'd be heading back to the North West it was only when the job became 'permanent' that I became a member. Surely that's something that could be addressed after all clubs pro rata the subs when people join mid year so why not agree that someone could join for a period shorter than 12 months?

You'd have been fine at our place, they offer a 3 month trial membership (you get full membership rights) and from then you can go onto paying monthly and knock it on the head at any point with a months notice, none of this committing to 12 mths membership each time which the majority of clubs insist upon

 

[fundy]

Rather a sweeping statement is it not ?

At my Club we had a Junior go all the way to the semi final of The Club Championship this year. Our ladies are full members and as the Junior section is usually dominated by boys, any girls are soon welcomed in to play alongside the Ladies.

Our club champs and scratch knockout were both won by juniors last year, and our scratch A side usually has 3 juniors out of 5, theyre treated exactly as anyone else is (and expected to behave the same too)

 

[FairwayDodger]

but like you say its a numbers game are you suggesting positive discrimination?

My club the only times ladies can't play is the main silver comps and they are usually done by lunchtime so ladies can play any sat when one of these is not on ( only 8 sat at most) they also have Tuesday as ladies day and there are block bookings for the comps. for instance 4.30 to 6.30 is closed to men on a tues. I can't ever remember seeing a single lady let alone 12 tee times worth going out then.

so if you have a typical club say like ours 1300 male and 200 female and the men have a full field every week for a medal on a Sat, should that club block times for those 200 in the middle of the comp, knowing full well that most of the female if any would turn up to play?

Certainly not, more that the model of splitting club membership into male and female categories doesn't really fit with the realities of modern life.

Just looked at our fixture list for July/August.... out of 18 possible weekend days 6 of them have the tee blocked out until mid/late afternoon for men's comps. i.e. on a third of prime season playing days (for full time workers) females can't play until late on. I think that's an issue that clubs should be addressing.

Another issue is the one you describe - reserving the tee for women when there's actually no demand. That's just daft and probably exists for historical reasons and to "balance out" times when men's comps etc are on.

I think every member should have the same playing rights on the course. Maybe that means all comps are mixed or maybe it means members who are not eligible for a particular comp are still allowed to book tee times during a comp block. I don't know the answer but I don't see many clubs addressing it as a problem.

 

[Mike Lane 1977]

In regards to membership DeVere brought in a point way of playing golf and this is great for anyone who travels with work as they can play any course in the DeVere group. The idea of having a points system could be great for clubs to try encourage people to see if they would play enough to take on a full membership.

My other question is how to improve the experience for current players of golf, do we look at better club house facilites? Do we need a proshop selling everything or do we need a pro who is there teaching, educating people, custom fitting and regripping. I cant imagine training to become a pro for 5 years to become a seller of chocolate bars, drinks and bits and pieces for the course.

Surely they dont want this and there time could be used better for working on getting people into golf, basic get into golf stuff cost him nothing but his knowledge as the club own the balls and space to do it?

 

[patricks148]

Certainly not, more that the model of splitting club membership into male and female categories doesn't really fit with the realities of modern life.

Just looked at our fixture list for July/August.... out of 18 possible weekend days 6 of them have the tee blocked out until mid/late afternoon for men's comps. i.e. on a third of prime season playing days (for full time workers) females can't play until late on. I think that's an issue that clubs should be addressing.

Another issue is the one you describe - reserving the tee for women when there's actually no demand. That's just daft and probably exists for historical reasons and to "balance out" times when men's comps etc are on.

I think every member should have the same playing rights on the course. Maybe that means all comps are mixed or maybe it means members who are not eligible for a particular comp are still allowed to book tee times during a comp block. I don't know the answer but I don't see many clubs addressing it as a problem.

The trouble is you are the exception rather that the rule

my club experimented with mixed medals and no ladies wanted to play, they wanted to play with other ladies in ladies only comps and times.

maybe you should as i suggested before ask to play in mens comps and have 2 handicaps

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

In line with the female/male issue brought up by FD, I think that clubs need to forget ladies/mens sections. Let everyone play in everything. No "male only" comps or such like, that would block up the course for all day and stop women playing, and the same for ladies days or the like.

Getting rid of 12 month memberships I see as a brilliant move. Lots of people are now moving around a lot more, and don't want to be tied in to a whole 12 months. Very few gyms do a 12 month membership without offering a good discount over a month by month contract, why should a golf course be any different!

With regards to not focusing on junior members, because they might not straight away become full members, is ridiculously short term. If you focus on them while junior, they may stay with the game and join A course when they're older. It may be a different course, but then you may get juniors from other courses that grow up and join yours. The more people playing the game, the better.

People have also mentioned getting rid of 21-30 subsidies. If they didn't exist, it is very very unlikely I would join a club, and likely play the odd nomadic round at different courses. Again it comes down to money for the industry as a whole. If situated in the right place as well, a group of 21-30's are a bit more likely to spend a whack on beer after the round, than a group of seniors having cups of tee (massive sweeping statement, purely to prove a point).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In line with the female/male issue brought up by FD, I think that clubs need to forget ladies/mens sections. Let everyone play in everything. No "male only" comps or such like, that would block up the course for all day and stop women playing, and the same for ladies days or the like.

Getting rid of 12 month memberships I see as a brilliant move. Lots of people are now moving around a lot more, and don't want to be tied in to a whole 12 months. Very few gyms do a 12 month membership without offering a good discount over a month by month contract, why should a golf course be any different!

With regards to not focusing on junior members, because they might not straight away become full members, is ridiculously short term. If you focus on them while junior, they may stay with the game and join A course when they're older. It may be a different course, but then you may get juniors from other courses that grow up and join yours. The more people playing the game, the better.

People have also mentioned getting rid of 21-30 subsidies. If they didn't exist, it is very very unlikely I would join a club, and likely play the odd nomadic round at different courses. Again it comes down to money for the industry as a whole. If situated in the right place as well, a group of 21-30's are a bit more likely to spend a whack on beer after the round, than a group of seniors having cups of tee (massive sweeping statement, purely to prove a point).

Very few gyms are members clubs - they are organisations with financial capacity to support individual clubs where membership income alone would make the club unsustainable. Members clubs need some certainty of income over the period - and I can;t see how monthly subscriptions would support that. And who would pay monthly membership over the Winter months anyway?

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Very few gyms are members clubs - they are organisations with financial capacity to support individual clubs where membership income alone would make the club unsustainable. Members clubs need some certainty of income over the period - and I can;t see how monthly subscriptions would support that. And who would pay monthly membership over the Winter months anyway?

a) I think members clubs have had their day, but that may be a discussion for a different time!
b) Proper income management and budgets/forecasts could support the club over the winter. You would hope that an increase in summer monies coming in would make up for the lack of it in winter. On top of this, less footfall over the winter = better for the course = better course in the summer = more visitors in the summer!

 

[Hobbit]

No doubt there are some golf clubs that are struggling but if they've survived from 2008 to now, they will probably still be around for a wee while to come. Yes there is a need to move with the times, just as there's always been.

"Juniors are the future of the club." No they're not. The full members of today will make the decisions that should ensure the club is still in existence for the current juniors to play and manage. Yes, full members of today need to create an experience that ensures some juniors retain the interest, or return if they do leave. As an ex-junior organiser with many years experience, successful years, I assure you you'll lose a lot more juniors than you'll keep.

"Committees full of old coffin dodgers are to blame for being self centred and only looking after themselves." Who voted them in? The majority of the club did. If you want a different type of committee man, choose one and vote him in. If he doesn't get in, the majority of the club didn't want him. That makes you the minority - get over it.

Affordability; too many people want too many things in life. They want their two weeks in Tenerife and meals out and weekends away and full membership at a decent golf club and and and . They want to pay for a Skoda and drive a Ferrari. If you want it enough you'll find the time and the money at the expense of something else. Golf is cheaper now than its ever been, yet so many people want to pay pennies for an Augusta experience - yes, be ambitious but be realistic.

Golf does need to change some things. I moved clubs at the beginning of the year to a club with no dress code for the bar, and phones are allowed anywhere and and and. Its fantastic. But its come with a price. If you want x, y AND z, sorry but it costs.

 

[patricks148]

a) I think members clubs have had their day, but that may be a discussion for a different time!
b) Proper income management and budgets/forecasts could support the club over the winter. You would hope that an increase in summer monies coming in would make up for the lack of it in winter. On top of this, less footfall over the winter = better for the course = better course in the summer = more visitors in the summer!

TBH if clubs up here were run like that none would still be running after a year.

it might work in high populated area's, but clubs on the whole are not some faceless organisations they are run by members for members at the end of the day.

 

[patricks148]

No doubt there are some golf clubs that are struggling but if they've survived from 2008 to now, they will probably still be around for a wee while to come. Yes there is a need to move with the times, just as there's always been.

"Juniors are the future of the club." No they're not. The full members of today will make the decisions that should ensure the club is still in existence for the current juniors to play and manage. Yes, full members of today need to create an experience that ensures some juniors retain the interest, or return if they do leave. As an ex-junior organiser with many years experience, successful years, I assure you you'll lose a lot more juniors than you'll keep.

"Committees full of old coffin dodgers are to blame for being self centred and only looking after themselves." Who voted them in? The majority of the club did. If you want a different type of committee man, choose one and vote him in. If he doesn't get in, the majority of the club didn't want him. That makes you the minority - get over it.

Affordability; too many people want too many things in life. They want their two weeks in Tenerife and meals out and weekends away and full membership at a decent golf club and and and . They want to pay for a Skoda and drive a Ferrari. If you want it enough you'll find the time and the money at the expense of something else. Golf is cheaper now than its ever been, yet so many people want to pay pennies for an Augusta experience - yes, be ambitious but be realistic.

Golf does need to change some things. I moved clubs at the beginning of the year to a club with no dress code for the bar, and phones are allowed anywhere and and and. Its fantastic. But its come with a price. If you want x, y AND z, sorry but it costs.

yep a lot of sense in this post:thup:

 

[fundy]

Very few gyms are members clubs - they are organisations with financial capacity to support individual clubs where membership income alone would make the club unsustainable. Members clubs need some certainty of income over the period - and I can;t see how monthly subscriptions would support that. And who would pay monthly membership over the Winter months anyway?

I do, i dont quite see it that way though, its an ongoing membership but where i can leave as and when i want rather than having to give upto 12 mths notice (as in effect you do at some courses by paying for the full yr)

 

[Deleted member 18588]

No doubt there are some golf clubs that are struggling but if they've survived from 2008 to now, they will probably still be around for a wee while to come. Yes there is a need to move with the times, just as there's always been.

"Juniors are the future of the club." No they're not. The full members of today will make the decisions that should ensure the club is still in existence for the current juniors to play and manage. Yes, full members of today need to create an experience that ensures some juniors retain the interest, or return if they do leave. As an ex-junior organiser with many years experience, successful years, I assure you you'll lose a lot more juniors than you'll keep.

"Committees full of old coffin dodgers are to blame for being self centred and only looking after themselves." Who voted them in? The majority of the club did. If you want a different type of committee man, choose one and vote him in. If he doesn't get in, the majority of the club didn't want him. That makes you the minority - get over it.

Affordability; too many people want too many things in life. They want their two weeks in Tenerife and meals out and weekends away and full membership at a decent golf club and and and . They want to pay for a Skoda and drive a Ferrari. If you want it enough you'll find the time and the money at the expense of something else. Golf is cheaper now than its ever been, yet so many people want to pay pennies for an Augusta experience - yes, be ambitious but be realistic.

Golf does need to change some things. I moved clubs at the beginning of the year to a club with no dress code for the bar, and phones are allowed anywhere and and and. Its fantastic. But its come with a price. If you want x, y AND z, sorry but it costs.

If you are standing for office you have got my vote. Absolutely nothing there that I could disagree with.