How do clubs become more sustainable

[Deleted member 18588]

a) I think members clubs have had their day, but that may be a discussion for a different time!
b) Proper income management and budgets/forecasts could support the club over the winter. You would hope that an increase in summer monies coming in would make up for the lack of it in winter. On top of this, less footfall over the winter = better for the course = better course in the summer = more visitors in the summer!

On the contrary, it has been, and continues to be, mainly proprietary clubs that are closing.

I think this is largely due to the owners finding that they cannot achieve the anticipated return on their capital. Proprietary clubs do not have members who have a commitment both financial and emotional to their club, instead they have customers.

As with any business these customers expect to be able to take their business elsewhere when they are dissatisfied with the product on offer.

At a members' club it is those members who decide the direction that the Club takes. Obviously commercial considerations must be taken into consideration but ultimately the members' interests are paramount. Should any individual or group of members be unhappy about the decision making then recourse lies in their hands by democratic methods.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

"Juniors are the future of the club." No they're not. The full members of today will make the decisions that should ensure the club is still in existence for the current juniors to play and manage. Yes, full members of today need to create an experience that ensures some juniors retain the interest, or return if they do leave. As an ex-junior organiser with many years experience, successful years, I assure you you'll lose a lot more juniors than you'll keep.

This to me seems very short sighted, when you mention losing a lot more juniors than you'll keep. They may disappear, but they will likely be at a club. We shouldn't focus purely on our own club, the sport as a whole needs a kick up the *** in my eyes, the more juniors playing, the more future players! Otherwise the clubs that have survived since 2008 won't be surviving in 20 years time or so!

"Committees full of old coffin dodgers are to blame for being self centred and only looking after themselves." Who voted them in? The majority of the club did. If you want a different type of committee man, choose one and vote him in. If he doesn't get in, the majority of the club didn't want him. That makes you the minority - get over it.

Ah, the majority of people are always right. Never mind that many of them may or may not be Business trained, or be aware of the risks faced by the club. Clubs have to be thinking long term these days, and the best people to do this may not be "Bill Jones - the really popular guy who everyone knows and talks to". Dourfaced Bob who isn't that popular may surprisingly be a much better person for the committee, but if it's based on a vote, who would know this!

Affordability; too many people want too many things in life. They want their two weeks in Tenerife and meals out and weekends away and full membership at a decent golf club and and and . They want to pay for a Skoda and drive a Ferrari. If you want it enough you'll find the time and the money at the expense of something else. Golf is cheaper now than its ever been, yet so many people want to pay pennies for an Augusta experience - yes, be ambitious but be realistic.

I think people are still realistic these days, but they have a much better idea of what they can expect for their money. Just because people paid exorbitant amounts for something in the past doesn't mean it's too cheap now, it may just mean they were overcharged before! People do want a lot for their money, and I would argue that is because the younger generations (myself included) have seen how things can be run in other places, and wonder why that can't be repeated at your own club. Whilst there may be valid reasons for this, many times it can be put down to "because we always have".

Without wishing to insult your point of view (this is purely for the sake of discussion, no slight intended), I do think your point of view is very much in line with the more established committee member at the moment, who knows how things have been run for many years, and whilst you are happy to change things like the dress code and phones, certain things like members clubs or such like are sacrosant. I'm looking at this from a complete root and branch change of the system, with the aim of updating the sport of golf as a whole, more than just the club. I am likely missing many out areas that I simply haven't experienced to date, but I am basing my opinion on what I have seen.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

On the contrary, it has been, and continues to be, mainly proprietary clubs that are closing.

I think this is largely due to the owners finding that they cannot achieve the anticipated return on their capital. Proprietary clubs do not have members who have a commitment both financial and emotional to their club, instead they have customers.

As with any business these customers expect to be able to take their business elsewhere when they are dissatisfied with the product on offer.

At a members' club it is those members who decide the direction that the Club takes. Obviously commercial considerations must be taken into consideration but ultimately the members' interests are paramount. Should any individual or group of members be unhappy about the decision making then recourse lies in their hands by democratic methods.

That is understandable indeed, but knowing myself and many others of my generation, I honestly wouldn't expect to see a significant amount of members clubs still around in 20 or 30 years. Times have changed too much for that model to continue to work, in my eyes.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

That is understandable indeed, but knowing myself and many others of my generation, I honestly wouldn't expect to see a significant amount of members clubs still around in 20 or 30 years. Times have changed too much for that model to continue to work, in my eyes.

You had better hope there are as otherwise there is likely to be a shortage of places to play.

At the top end of the proprietary market demand and, therefore, supply is likely to be maintained as quality sells. However, due to the very lack of product loyalty that you refer to the mainstream faces extreme difficulties as owners are not likely to invest in what is, after al, a long term project when people such as yourself wish to just move on after perhaps only a few months.

Unlike the gym business golf projects require a long incubation period whether it is building a new course or making improvements to an existing one.

Anyway I don't really care as I will not still be a member in 20-30 years time but looking at the profile of my club's membership I suspect that it will still be here as opposed to two local proprietary clubs that are currently in danger and one municipal facing closure by the Council in the next 12 months.

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

You had better hope there are as otherwise there is likely to be a shortage of places to play.

At the top end of the proprietary market demand and, therefore, supply is likely to be maintained as quality sells. However, due to the very lack of product loyalty that you refer to the mainstream faces extreme difficulties as owners are not likely to invest in what is, after al, a long term project when people such as yourself wish to just move on after perhaps only a few months.

Unlike the gym business golf projects require a long incubation period whether it is building a new course or making improvements to an existing one.

Anyway I don't really care as I will not still be a member in 20-30 years time but looking at the profile of my club's membership I suspect that it will still be here as opposed to two local proprietary clubs that are currently in danger and one municipal facing closure by the Council in the next 12 months.

Ahh but now do you see why I think that clubs should focus on building up the Juniors anyway, even if many of them don't stay initially?

The more golfers around in 30 years, the more courses will open to satisfy them. There will still of course be members clubs, it's just my opinion that they will either change dramatically, or find an even greater number of proprietary clubs. Crown golf and the like strike me as the sort of enterprise that will work very well. (as far as i'm aware, this is a proprietary organisation?)

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Ahh but now do you see why I think that clubs should focus on building up the Juniors anyway, even if many of them don't stay initially?

The more golfers around in 30 years, the more courses will open to satisfy them. There will still of course be members clubs, it's just my opinion that they will either change dramatically, or find an even greater number of proprietary clubs. Crown golf and the like strike me as the sort of enterprise that will work very well. (as far as i'm aware, this is a proprietary organisation?)

So far Crown Golf appear to have achieved their position by acquiring already developed courses.

The type of marketplace you forecast for the future is unlikely to encourage any business, Crown Golf or otherwise, to invest in new courses.

The golf business continues to be littered with developments that involved very significant capital outlay but then provided an extremely slow return on that investment. Hence Crown Golf have been able to build their portfolio as the original developers gave up and accepted some return.

I would suggest that this will not provide for sustainable growth in the future as the competition for discretionary, leisure spend continues.

If I want to open a gym I either build or buy premises, kit them out and can be open in weeks.

If I want to open a golf course it is likely to be a minimum of four years before I am open for business.

Which am I more likely to consider if in either case my customers are likely to leave me at the drop of a hat if there is an alternative option undercutting me? Certainly not the one that required me to tie up capital for four years with no return.

 

[Hobbit]

Without wishing to insult your point of view (this is purely for the sake of discussion, no slight intended), I do think your point of view is very much in line with the more established committee member at the moment, who knows how things have been run for many years, and whilst you are happy to change things like the dress code and phones, certain things like members clubs or such like are sacrosant. I'm looking at this from a complete root and branch change of the system, with the aim of updating the sport of golf as a whole, more than just the club. I am likely missing many out areas that I simply haven't experienced to date, but I am basing my opinion on what I have seen.

Not insulted in the slightest. If there weren't people questioning things, no progress would be made.

My experience? 46yrs playing golf from junior to coffin dodger. 30yrs committee work - I guess that makes me the dreaded establishment, and to be dismissed out of hand. A business man running a budget of over £5mill with a 40%+ gross profit - balance sheets R 'us.'. And someone who proposed better access/vote for ladies, better access for juniors, inc being able to use the changing rooms - you think its poor for juniors now... it was way worse in the 60's. Flexible membership packages, including seasonal packages. I've stood at AGM's and argued and argued and argued for many changes, some of which are still being suggested in this thread.

Many of the things in this thread I proposed long ago, and then fought for. Be ambitious yes and yes again, but be a realist - root and branch might just see many established golfers leave the game - you'd improve things for 10%, and lose many more.

 

[Coatsy79]

Is quite simple, follow the rural pub model

Make it a place to play golf but also have a decent meal, that way people would visit for lunch or dinner, add in the nice surroundings of being on a golf course you've got 2 revenue streams (in know some clubs offer good food, ours is ok but could be sooooooo much better)

And drop the Jacket and Tie rubbish, people don't dress like that anymore and those that do largely look a mess anyway as they've not bought a new jacket in 30 years

My friend works for a decent company, he wears jeans and shirts to work, he looks smart, why is this ok for his job but not ok for a golf club seems like madness

 

[Jungle]

As a relative newbie to the game, I can still recall my entry into the world of club golf.

It's bloody daunting! I was so nervous about rules and etiquette. I agree that these are the cornerstones of the game but I feel we often make too much of them, even getting handed the rule book could be enough to put some off.

Anyway a club can make it easier for beginners to integrate into the club would go along way. I like the idea a few pages back of closing the course for a few hours with volunteers taking a few interested people out on the course.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

No doubt there are some golf clubs that are struggling but if they've survived from 2008 to now, they will probably still be around for a wee while to come. Yes there is a need to move with the times, just as there's always been.

"Juniors are the future of the club." No they're not. The full members of today will make the decisions that should ensure the club is still in existence for the current juniors to play and manage. Yes, full members of today need to create an experience that ensures some juniors retain the interest, or return if they do leave. As an ex-junior organiser with many years experience, successful years, I assure you you'll lose a lot more juniors than you'll keep.

"Committees full of old coffin dodgers are to blame for being self centred and only looking after themselves." Who voted them in? The majority of the club did. If you want a different type of committee man, choose one and vote him in. If he doesn't get in, the majority of the club didn't want him. That makes you the minority - get over it.

Affordability; too many people want too many things in life. They want their two weeks in Tenerife and meals out and weekends away and full membership at a decent golf club and and and . They want to pay for a Skoda and drive a Ferrari. If you want it enough you'll find the time and the money at the expense of something else. Golf is cheaper now than its ever been, yet so many people want to pay pennies for an Augusta experience - yes, be ambitious but be realistic.

Golf does need to change some things. I moved clubs at the beginning of the year to a club with no dress code for the bar, and phones are allowed anywhere and and and. Its fantastic. But its come with a price. If you want x, y AND z, sorry but it costs.

Totally agree with you

 

[MadAdey]

Is quite simple, follow the rural pub model

Make it a place to play golf but also have a decent meal, that way people would visit for lunch or dinner, add in the nice surroundings of being on a golf course you've got 2 revenue streams (in know some clubs offer good food, ours is ok but could be sooooooo much better)

And drop the Jacket and Tie rubbish, people don't dress like that anymore and those that do largely look a mess anyway as they've not bought a new jacket in 30 years

My friend works for a decent company, he wears jeans and shirts to work, he looks smart, why is this ok for his job but not ok for a golf club seems like madness

Revenue streams do have to be looked at, I mentioned earlier that I have left the club in a Sunday lunchtime before and gone to the local country pub for lunch because I did not have to mess around getting changed, standard of food was not an issue.

I look at it like this, if me and my 2 mates are playing in the medal on a Sunday morning we might get our partners to come and meet us for lunch. Now if it is say £10 a head like local pubs that is £60 in food lost and possibly another £40 lost in drinks. So one 3-ball could have put another £100 of business to the club, say that happens 5 times that Sunday. The club has lost £25000 in potential revenue over the year, all because they wanted you to put a tie on and your misses was expected to look like she was going to afternoon tea back in the 1940s. Ok that's just hypothetical, but if you look at that over the full week, I wonder how much more money clubs could make if they relaxed dress code in the clubhouse. I'm not the only one that has mentioned this, Greg is saying the same too.

Don't get me wrong, I do not want to see people in work boots and kids running around like little gangsters in hoodies and scruffy trainers. But I do not see what us wrong with smart jeans and trainers. I see panty of people in clubhouses that look a right state, but that is allowed as they are in trousers and shoes, but I would not even cut the grass looking as scruffy as some old boys I see in the clubhouse.

To to cut a long story short golf clubs need to open the doors up to the masses and that will only start when they start relaxing the dress code.

 

[Fish]

I actually don't mind putting on a jacket, shirt & tie after club team matches, presentations or club functions etc, any collar is good enough for the restaurant during the day so a polo shirt is suffice but trousers and shoes have to be worn, again, I don't have an issue with this. I rarely have to get 'dressed up' for anything these days so putting on a tie and jacket after some club events or having an evening meal or Sunday Carvery in a golf club restaurant gives me a sense of 'belonging' to my club or the sport in general, maybe its my military background that supports this view but there are far more 'golfing' issues to worry about than putting on a shirt & tie at times!

However, I don't agree with sitting and eating my meal with my jacket on until the captain of the day says I can take it off, that's just stupid, uncomfortable and very antiquated.

 

[MadAdey]

I actually don't mind putting on a jacket, shirt & tie after club team matches, presentations or club functions etc, any collar is good enough for the restaurant during the day so a polo shirt is suffice but trousers and shoes have to be worn, again, I don't have an issue with this. I rarely have to get 'dressed up' for anything these days so putting on a tie and jacket after some club events or having an evening meal or Sunday Carvery in a golf club restaurant gives me a sense of 'belonging' to my club or the sport in general, maybe its my military background that supports this view but there are far more 'golfing' issues to worry about than putting on a shirt & tie at times!

However, I don't agree with sitting and eating my meal with my jacket on until the captain of the day says I can take it off, that's just stupid, uncomfortable and very antiquated.

Robin, I'm ex military and so are a lot of forumers so have it engrained into us to always look smart, some like me had the pleasure of a dad that was a staffie in the Anglians so even had a childhood like it. I agree with the likes of presentation nights requesting you to wear a collar and tie, at the end of the day pics are taken for the club website and local papers, so you need to look the part. I just think the old school way of having to wear a jacket in the restaurant is way off the mark, like people have said I too have been in upscale restaurants in smart jeans and shoes.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I actually don't mind putting on a jacket, shirt & tie after club team matches, presentations or club functions etc, any collar is good enough for the restaurant during the day so a polo shirt is suffice but trousers and shoes have to be worn, again, I don't have an issue with this. I rarely have to get 'dressed up' for anything these days so putting on a tie and jacket after some club events or having an evening meal or Sunday Carvery in a golf club restaurant gives me a sense of 'belonging' to my club or the sport in general, maybe its my military background that supports this view but there are far more 'golfing' issues to worry about than putting on a shirt & tie at times!

However, I don't agree with sitting and eating my meal with my jacket on until the captain of the day says I can take it off, that's just stupid, uncomfortable and very antiquated.

I'd say your view is not shared by a lot of the younger (and some of the elder if I am honest) generation nowadays. I can't see what's wrong with people being able to put on a jacket and tie if they want to, but people also having the option not to. Again it's the 'mandatory' side of things that I think puts people off. In general people do not like having a lot of rules and being told what they can't do or can't wear if they are spending their well earned money on a leisure pursuit that is supposed to be enjoyable.

I know the standard answer to this by some is sometimes 'well they can go somewhere else then'. But the problem is that they are doing.

And as I've said on may occasions, if someone is offended/upset by someone not having a tie on or not having their shirt tucked in than it says more about the person who is offended than the non tie wearer in my opinion.

Also agree that there are more golfing issues to worry about. But I think the problem is that taken in isolation any change or initiative will not make much change. And any changes have to be part of a planned overall initiative.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

In regards Jacket and Tie for after match dinner etc

We are finding a lot of clubs are struggling to get a team due to issues like the length of time the whole day is and having to get suited and booted after each match - so we have found a number of clubs have changed to brunch matches

Full brunch or breakie on arrival - the game of golf followed by sandwiches and chips and finished by 5/6 - that way the whole day is taken up

Our club arent doing this and some clubs are struggling to get teams to play against us - Fundy might conform it but understand AVGC Seniors couldnt get a team to play.

I mentioned the jacket and tie situation and people not being too thrilled about it to our Vice Capt - he is very much a traditionalist and likes the jacket and tie afterwards - his respone was - " If people dont want to play us because of the jacket and tie etc then we will look for other clubs thats will" - the problem is we will run out of clubs

I believe we need to find a compromise - have a mixture of both

We have two clubs that we are linked with through tradition etc - John O Gaunt and Aspley Guise . JOG matches are played in April and Nov - In april its just a normal match with food etc afterwards but in Nov its the big Xmas match where the teams are coached to the other club and lots of drink before during and after the match and lots of trophies stolen etc - that should stay jacket and tie etc

But we have matches against a lot of other clubs just the once during the year and every away match this year has been a brunch match - so i believe we should move along to those. That way you might encourage more than the same 14 names every single match

 

[moogie]

What about a new membership for let's say £500. With this he gets membership to the club so he has a maintained handicap and can play in organised comps. He also gets 20 rounds a year, but can't use them during peak w/e times ie 8am-10am & 12pm-2pm. If he wants to play anymore than his 20 rounds a year then he gets to play at members guest rates for anything over that, or if he wants to play at peak w/e times.

So now you have got a new member, maybe not paying the full whack but eventually he will have the time and money and take full membership up. Over time he will want to play more and more and eventually take full membership.

We have a few clubs in my area offering flexible memberships along these lines
Memberships at these clubs range from about £550 to about £680 for full membership

The flexible deals on offer are varied, but few examples
£150 and £10 per round (any day)
£180 and £12 per round " "
£150 and £15 per round " "

Have same booking rights and playing rights as a full member, handicap, competitions, etc......

Ideal I'd say if you like playing competitions, want a handicap in order to play open comps, but may be the type of golfer that doesn't play 12 months per year, or less than 30/35 rounds per year at home club
Some of these deals also have a 9 hole rate too

I see this becoming more popular, as I'm sure plenty are more suited to this type of membership

 

[HomerJSimpson]

With regards to jacket and tie, the club took the decision several years ago to stop doing this for club matches, with the exception of two more traditional clubs on the rota. Rather than play the match and then sit down to a full blown meal, it was decided to have smart casual and a brunch before the game with just sandwiches and chips after. Seems much more popular as people can now get away relatively quickly afterwards.

Personally I was brought up traditionally where jacket and tie was mandatory for most events and it was back in the day where cubs insisted on these to sit in the bar after 7.00pm. I think clubs need to be realistic in that most people have busy lives and so extending the day at the club actually precludes many members from getting involved in club matches. Similarly the need to get dressed up is also off putting in the modern day. Fine for things like Captains Day, Presentation night and some matches but other than that, let's make clubs as accommodating for new and existing members as we can

 

[cookelad]

Played a few matches over the hottest part of Summer for the club and every one of these matches it was jacket and tie, I don't actually own a jacket other than the one that gets aired at weddings, funerals and christenings etc, and the first thing at every meal to be said was along the lines of "you may now remove your jackets" so what was the point of putting the damned thing on then?