Hcap system - I don`t get it .

[Swango1980]

In next six rounds I’ll lose two 5.8s. I very much doubt I’ll be able to replace them with similar as these rounds reflected my stretch ability (and old system handicap would have reflected that ability); but at the moment I’m not scoring that well and I’ll lose at least one of them before the club championship in a couple of weeks and my CH will likely go up.

I could put in six cards and lose them both, and there’s a possibility that my CH would go up by 2 shots, though I won’t. But if I did am I manipulating or just looking to get to a HI that reflects my current playing to give myself a better chance of doing well in the championship nett prize.

Just don't submit too many general play scores before a comp. If your handicap sec is like some on here, they might accuse you of cheating

 

[jim8flog]

Thanks for input - what I don`t understand is that my hcap whatever it be is based on white tee medal play at this Course for 30+ years - so why cannot I play off this? why the extra shots to play off different tees either the same or shorter distance than what my hcap is based on. I see the sense in such adjustments when playing different Courses and welcome such improvements but not on ones Home Course.
.

On the assumption (under the old system) that there was a difference in the SSS between whites and yellows on your course you were effectively playing to a different handicap on each tee because the adjustments would have been made against the CSS for each in different comps.

 

[jim8flog]

Can someone explain to me why it is called the WHS when every Country uses a varying degree of the original one ?

The essence of the system is the same (best 8 out of 20) and once it is sorted your handicap will become truly portable around the world. I know in the UK we have a lot of players who spend the winters abroad and in the long run their rounds abroad will appear on their UK records and vice versa.

 

[clubchamp98]

If you think that everyone's handicap was accurate under the UHS, think again. The "ratchet system" by which a declining player's handicap went up by only 0.1 at a time no matter by how much their nett score was in excess of the buffer zone alone resulted in many such players being underhandicapped because of the system. An analysis at my own club showed some 26% of players were underhandicapped. Some were missing the buffer zone by 17/18 strokes, the systemic failure being compounded by their putting in only 3 scores a year. With only this minimum of scores returned, it took over 3 years to add 1 stroke to a handicap. The Annual Review recommendations for increases were ludicrously restricted to a couple of strokes. I've seen a player with net differentials 14 strokes above their buffer zone being recommended to get a 1 stroke increase.

The WHS averaging system is a considerable improvement on that. Plus, a club now has the freedom to choose how many scores have to be returned each year to be eligible for entry competitions (or none at all).

That’s their own fault though if they only put 3 cards in a year they can’t be that bothered.
Is that worse than a system that allows you to manipulate it so much.

 

[jim8flog]

Didn't the CHR only report on seven consecutive 0.1 increases? One buffer zone score (the day in the sun) would scupper that.

Yes the Continuous Review was in fact very restrictive there were very few players we altered based upon this review although quite a few clearly needed increases. On a personal level I had to verbally fight with my fellow committee members to even get a review in the first place when I met the criteria. Several of my playing mates complained when I was given an increase..

 

[clubchamp98]

If you are implying that this is the behaviour of an honest player, you are wrong. Submitting scores with the intention of increasing your index isn't legitimate. The Handicap Committee should have been all over this - with the assistance of someone reporting such behaviour, if necessary.

I wasn’t implying that.
Imo he’s a cheat.
But in the rules of WHS can you point out what he did wrong.

 

[wjemather]

No it doesn't. Unless I missed it, nothing was said that he wasn't trying to score his best during those rounds. Handicap secs should probably make sure they are aware how the system works before accusing players of cheating.

We were informed that he submitted scores with the express purpose of increasing his handicap. All the other stuff is your invention.

 

[clubchamp98]

Does it not depend on his intent during the round? It may simply be that the player has 3-5 of his best scores all as his oldest 5, when he was in great form. He now is playing nowhere near as well. He decides to take a week off, or organise 5 rounds after work, knowing that once he submits 5 scores, on current form, his handicap will go up.

He does so. Plays to his genuine current form. Would be pleasantly surprised if he shot a good score, but even if he doesn't, at least comforted by the fact his handicap will increase accordingly.

WHS tell us the system is great because it changes more quickly to reflect form. Yet, are you saying you would jump on top of that player, warn him, accuse him of being dishonest and put his handicap back down?

I agree but he told me in advance what he was going to do.
I think that’s wrong.

 

[clubchamp98]

"...put in 5 general play cards to get his cap up because he was playing a knockout at the weekend" - this clearly describes someone manipulating their handicap. Whatever action should be taken depends on unknown (to us) factors.

That is exactly my point .
WHS has made this possible.

 

[jim8flog]

One of the things I like about the new system is that it is possible to go up relatively easily without others complaining. Under the WHS I have gone from a low of 7.9 to a high of 12.4 (currently 11) without any howls of derision from those I play with.

Under the old system I once had a review which put up from 6 to 8 and there were no end of complaints from a few which even went as far as a complaint to the Captain who carried out an investigation in to my review.

 

[jim8flog]

That is exactly my point .
WHS has made this possible.

and the guy got a one shot increase, hardly worth crying about.

 

[wjemather]

I wasn’t implying that.
Imo he’s a cheat.
But in the rules of WHS can you point out what he did wrong.

I'd be calling him for a chat so he could explain his actions. On the face of it, he is failing the first point of player responsibilities (Appendix A in the rules):

• Act with integrity by following the Rules of Handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the Rules of Handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage.

 

[rulie]

That is exactly my point .
WHS has made this possible.

Cheaters will cheat.
Honesty pays. Just try to do your best at all times and enter the resulting scores.

 

[clubchamp98]

and the guy got a one shot increase, hardly worth crying about.

Not crying I could not care less.
I am just pointing out that WHS is easy to manipulate if you are of that ilk.

 

[Swango1980]

We were informed that he submitted scores with the express purpose of increasing his handicap. All the other stuff is your invention.

I'm sorry. You need to do better than that if you are going to accuse someone of cheating.

We all KNOW how the system works. We all KNOW when we have a good score or 2 that is about to drop off our record. If that encourages someone to go out and play a round of golf, when we otherwise would not have, tell me how that is cheating!?

WHS does not instruct us to NOT submit General Play scores if we have a competition coming up, and the chances our the handicap will increase simply because we will lose good scores. The fact a handicap can increase quickly is simply the way the system works. If you are going to accuse a player of wrongfully manipulate their handicap for this, then you would also have to do the same for a player who chooses NOT to pre-register and submit a General Play round because they don't want to risk shooting a good score and getting a decrease, or they don't want to shoot a bad score because, for whatever reason, they want their handicap to stay low.

Whether it feels right or not, if a player goes out and submits several General Play rounds, and plays as best they can, tell me why that is cheating? Why is it not simply a case of their handicap increasing rapidly to reflect current form?

 

[wjemather]

I'm sorry. You need to do better than that if you are going to accuse someone of cheating.

We all KNOW how the system works. We all KNOW when we have a good score or 2 that is about to drop off our record. If that encourages someone to go out and play a round of golf, when we otherwise would not have, tell me how that is cheating!?

WHS does not instruct us to NOT submit General Play scores if we have a competition coming up, and the chances our the handicap will increase simply because we will lose good scores. The fact a handicap can increase quickly is simply the way the system works. If you are going to accuse a player of wrongfully manipulate their handicap for this, then you would also have to do the same for a player who chooses NOT to pre-register and submit a General Play round because they don't want to risk shooting a good score and getting a decrease, or they don't want to shoot a bad score because, for whatever reason, they want their handicap to stay low.

Whether it feels right or not, if a player goes out and submits several General Play rounds, and plays as best they can, tell me why that is cheating? Why is it not simply a case of their handicap increasing rapidly to reflect current form?

More whataboutery that has nothing to do with the content of the OP. I suggest you review player responsibilities (i).

 

[Swango1980]

I wasn’t implying that.
Imo he’s a cheat.
But in the rules of WHS can you point out what he did wrong.

Exaclt. He didn't. So long as he went out and played golf as best as he normally would do, he is simply using the system to reflect current form. It is exactly one of the benefits we were given for WHS.

Sure, some will say it doesn't feel right. And, I get that feeling completely. But, there are no rules I am aware of that says general play scores must not be submitted before a competition in case the handicap increases. I am unaware of any clubs, for example, that ban General Play scores for players about to play in upcoming competitions, or intervene if they see competitors submitting these in the days leading up to them. However, if they did, I'd imagine they could get themselves on sticky ground if a player decides to officially complain. They would need to provide pretty good evidence that a player was acting dishonestly. However, in your mates case, you have already said he is no cheat, so I assume he submitted those scores honestly. They were proper scores.

I guess you could say he is using the system to his advantage. Similar mindset to when people say professional golfers can use the rules to their advantage. They are not cheating or being dishonest. But, they can sometimes benefit in a situation were they would otherwise have been in trouble. It iften doesn't feel right, but the rules are being applied correctly.

 

[Swango1980]

More whataboutery that has nothing to do with the content of the OP. I suggest you review player responsibilities (i).

I suggest you do the same. You have invented a scenario that is absolutely nonsense. clubchamp98 has already said his friend is no cheat. That is exactly what you are accusing him off. Or being dishonest or wrongful manipulation. Yet, there is nothing in WHS that defines when general play rounds should be submitted.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Can someone explain to me why it is called the WHS when every Country uses a varying degree of the original one ?

It should have been called the WHIS, as that everyone's Handicap Index is the only thing that is the same the world over.

 

[wjemather]

I suggest you do the same. You have invented a scenario that is absolutely nonsense. clubchamp98 has already said his friend is no cheat. That is exactly what you are accusing him off. Or being dishonest or wrongful manipulation. Yet, there is nothing in WHS that defines when general play rounds should be submitted.

I suggest you re-read #66 ("Imo he’s a cheat").