Hcap system - I don`t get it .

[oltimer]

Playing 95% of my Golf at my home club for many years my hcap is based on playing this Course, couple of Ops and old age and my target now is to complete 18 holes not win anything off my 27 hcap so why do I have to play off
31 on yellow tees and 33 off whites after deducting 5% from them. the scores returned in Comps are nonsense wheras 42 points would once be in the prizes 52 is not rare, played a greensome and returned 61 and not even in the top 10,
Once in 20 years I had a 4 pointer now we have 5 pts and recently a 6 points on one hole. winner of winter league with best 8 from 10 scores counting was lowest 42 pts best 50 pts (but no hcap deductions), some have two shots on holes which they can reach in regulation. new members are winning comps until their hcap (35+) is adjusted down to their capabilities which is putting off many others from playing in them.

 

[wjemather]

Courses (and sets of tees) are not equally difficult to score to handicap for scratch and higher handicap golfers. As such the handicap system incorporates an adjustment - Slope - that means higher handicappers get more (or fewer) strokes than their bare handicap index to allow them to compete equitably. Slope has been in use in most jurisdictions around the world for years, but only since November 2020 in GB&I with the adoption of WHS.

95% allowances in individual stroke play competition are to further provide equity by accounting (a little) for the fact higher handicappers have a much lower potential nett score (or higher Stableford score) than lower handicappers, and the likelihood of such a score being returned increases with field size.

Without knowing the details of your club, it's impossible to comment on the rest of your post without making sweeping assumptions.

 

[IanM]

Apparently you're supposed to move clubs and tell them you have never played before. Then put in some appalling cards and win all the prizes you can, until it catches up with you.

Alternatively, give this thread a few hours and you'll be told you are mistaken and nothing much has changed with winning scores.

I think some clubs are worse than others for this, especially where new (and improving) players are starting with huge handicaps.

These pages are full of the impact of the changes that were not thought through properly and clubs' attempts to mitigate them.

 

[Colin L]

Good to see that you've wakened up this morning in such a sunny mood.

Some random thoughts.

A quick skim through some of our results of this season comes up with a maximum stableford win with 41 points and medal win with a nett differential of -6. Does that say something about the accuracy of our handicaps compared with yours? I don't know but it's worth a thought.

Freak/flukey events happen to golfers of all abilities but the outcome for a high handicapper is far more dramatic than for a low one. What you need to do is to put the high handicapper's 6 point hole in the wider context of of his play over a period ie all holes blobbed , the no returns, the miserably low points totals ... all the features of their golf , in other words, that make them a high handicapper.

Why shouldn't new members win competitions? If a player is making fast progress, good on them. If someone wins a comp with a particularly low score their handicap will be adjusted appropriately by the next day. If you're talking about new handicaps, there is no significant difference between the WHS now and the UHS then.

If you played in a greensome and didn't win with a nett 61, you and your partner didn't play well enough did you?

I remember when you used to be able to get a packet of fags and a pint for half a crown.

 

[oltimer]

Good to see that you've wakened up this morning in such a sunny mood.

Some random thoughts.

A quick skim through some of our results of this season comes up with a maximum stableford win with 41 points and medal win with a nett differential of -6. Does that say something about the accuracy of our handicaps compared with yours? I don't know but it's worth a thought.

Freak/flukey events happen to golfers of all abilities but the outcome for a high handicapper is far more dramatic than for a low one. What you need to do is to put the high handicapper's 6 point hole in the wider context of of his play over a period ie all holes blobbed , the no returns, the miserably low points totals ... all the features of their golf , in other words, that make them a high handicapper.

Why shouldn't new members win competitions? If a player is making fast progress, good on them. If someone wins a comp with a particularly low score their handicap will be adjusted appropriately by the next day. If you're talking about new handicaps, there is no significant difference between the WHS now and the UHS then.

If you played in a greensome and didn't win with a nett 61, you and your partner didn't play well enough did you?

I remember when you used to be able to get a packet of fags and a pint for half a crown.

Thanks - 41 pts wouldn`t be in the top 10 at my club, no problem with newbie winning but seems his hcap is not adjusted enough for several more comps - preferred the old system when immediate deductions were made against returns under nett par.

 

[wjemather]

Thanks - 41 pts wouldn`t be in the top 10 at my club, no problem with newbie winning but seems his hcap is not adjusted enough for several more comps - preferred the old system when immediate deductions were made against returns under nett par.

Adjustments under the old system were assessed against SSS/CSS (the equivalent is now Course Rating and PCC) and had nothing to do with par (except for the effect of Stableford/nett double bogey adjustments).

 

[jim8flog]

Age gets to us all and sometimes our handicap no longer reflects our ability.

I was once a 5/6 handicap and now have a course/playing handicap of 12/11. Under the old system of 0.1 increases I would probably still be around 8 or 9. It is one of the great things about the new handicap system you can get to a correct handicap fairly quickly.

40 plus points to win was fairly common pre WHS* where I play during the warmer drier months and in our Opens (4BBB) I can see the scores have actually got worse or at best stood still rather than got better.

*This weeks Seniors stableford was won with 49 points and I know the player really well and his 14/13 handicap would be pretty reflective of his ability most weeks.

 

[YandaB]

Thanks - 41 pts wouldn`t be in the top 10 at my club, no problem with newbie winning but seems his hcap is not adjusted enough for several more comps - preferred the old system when immediate deductions were made against returns under nett par.

If they do particularly well there are still immediate deductions for Exceptional scoring (-1 for better than 7 and -2 for better then 10 score differentials). If they only have a few cards in then that one big score is likely to have a far bigger impact then under the old system, it could possibly give them a handicap of 4 less than there best ever score, something that was unlikely if not impossible in the old system.

 

[jim8flog]

One thing I would add is the the really dry course conditions where I play has added a lot of yardage to most players drives so making the course much easier than normal which has had the effect of lowering scores generally.

 

[Swango1980]

Playing 95% of my Golf at my home club for many years my hcap is based on playing this Course, couple of Ops and old age and my target now is to complete 18 holes not win anything off my 27 hcap so why do I have to play off
31 on yellow tees and 33 off whites after deducting 5% from them. the scores returned in Comps are nonsense wheras 42 points would once be in the prizes 52 is not rare, played a greensome and returned 61 and not even in the top 10,
Once in 20 years I had a 4 pointer now we have 5 pts and recently a 6 points on one hole. winner of winter league with best 8 from 10 scores counting was lowest 42 pts best 50 pts (but no hcap deductions), some have two shots on holes which they can reach in regulation. new members are winning comps until their hcap (35+) is adjusted down to their capabilities which is putting off many others from playing in them.

I've had my say on this before, and at least described potential methods the system could have dealt with the newbie situation better, in my opinion. However, I'll not get into that again, as I know of one or 2 people that will blast me down, tell us the handicap system is absolutely perfect, and giving a player a handicap of, for example, 35 after submitting 3 cards is absolutely fine. Other golfers just need to accept that they will smash competitions once, as would be expected, they start to improve very quickly.

If the newbie issue is actually a problem at your course, it may be similar to my old club. It is a cheaper course, and attracts a lot of beginner type golfers (many of who may end up going to more prestigious clubs if they really start to enjoy the game). Added on to that, Covid also attracted new people to the game. As a result, we had many people submitting scores and getting their first handicap. Many of our comps were then won by these new golfers with scores close to 50 points (it was probably not dissimilar to pre WHS, although the winning scores might be closer to low to mid 40's by these players (WHS generally gave about 3 or 4 extra shots to the very high handicappers at our club, based on the slope).

So, in one sense, this might be an issue at your club. However, if their handicaps are not coming down after those big scores, I would question that. Are these rounds not being submitted for handicap (non-qualifiers in old speak)? Obviously, the formats being played might be the reason that is the case. However, I'd like to think your competition and handicap secretaries would be keeping a close eye on these types of comps, and checking whether anyone submitting these high scores are fairly handicapped. Perhaps even need to think about conditions of entry.

Also, are any of these new golfers really new? I have known cases where a golfer has gone to a club and they have just been asked to submit 3 cards, even though they previously had a handicap (in recent times).

If these winning scores are being regularly submitted by regular golfers with a "stable" handicap, I'd be surprised. Unless the CR is significantly lower than Par, it would be strange that so many golfers have seemingly shown huge improvement when they go out and have a good day.

 

[D-S]

I believe we were advised that in the transition lower handicappers would see their indexes reduce from their UHS 'number' and higher would see theirs increase. Coupled with the % increase that slope typically gives higher handicappers more shots, this must have initially increased the chances of higher handicappers of winning and possibly achieving some high scores.
It was assumed, I believe, that once things settled down order would be restored.
Maybe there has been a change in the balance of winners which is perhaps more equitable? Anecdotally we hear of many really low scores and it appears that many team competitions are won by higher indexes than before but citing that in some clubs things are absolutely fine and that in others comps are a nightmare isn't really moving the argument on. It would be good to hear of country or regional analysis to see the real picture.

 

[clubchamp98]

Playing 95% of my Golf at my home club for many years my hcap is based on playing this Course, couple of Ops and old age and my target now is to complete 18 holes not win anything off my 27 hcap so why do I have to play off
31 on yellow tees and 33 off whites after deducting 5% from them. the scores returned in Comps are nonsense wheras 42 points would once be in the prizes 52 is not rare, played a greensome and returned 61 and not even in the top 10,
Once in 20 years I had a 4 pointer now we have 5 pts and recently a 6 points on one hole. winner of winter league with best 8 from 10 scores counting was lowest 42 pts best 50 pts (but no hcap deductions), some have two shots on holes which they can reach in regulation. new members are winning comps until their hcap (35+) is adjusted down to their capabilities which is putting off many others from playing in them.

It’s the same at my club, 50 pts seems the norm now
As you say 41 isn’t top 10
Got me thinking about it.
At ours it’s not very penal unless you miss by miles ,this has an effect on the scores.
Pace of play seems more important than the set up of the course imo.
So virtually no rough means the low guys who hit the fairways a lot nothing has changed.
The high guys are not in much trouble missing fairways and can still score well.
This is just my opinion I might be wrong, but clubs that still have significant rough are not having these problems as much .
It’s a problem ,it’s putting low guys off the comps.

The fact we’re still debating WHS shows imo there is something wrong .
Some love it , some very clearly don’t as it’s made them uncompetitive.

 

[Colin L]

Thanks - 41 pts wouldn`t be in the top 10 at my club, no problem with newbie winning but seems his hcap is not adjusted enough for several more comps - preferred the old system when immediate deductions were made against returns under nett par.

Firstly, since stableford is based on par, it could be that the pars at your course are all or mostly set at the lower end of the overlapping distances, that the pars are incorrectly set, or that some members handicaps are unduly high. Or all three!

The old system wasn't based on par any more than the new. See post #6. Handicap adjustments are now made overnight and in effect the following day. If that is not happening with any member's handicap, newbie's or otherwise, you need to look at the competition set-up in your club. Most will be using an independent provider which will push scores up to the database immediately when entered by the player(not after the competition is closed as it used to be). And another point about new handicaps: the committee is expected to review the handicap index set by the system after the submission of the required number of scores. Is that happening?

 

[Orikoru]

Age gets to us all and sometimes our handicap no longer reflects our ability.

I was once a 5/6 handicap and now have a course/playing handicap of 12/11. Under the old system of 0.1 increases I would probably still be around 8 or 9. It is one of the great things about the new handicap system you can get to a correct handicap fairly quickly.

40 plus points to win was fairly common pre WHS* where I play during the warmer drier months and in our Opens (4BBB) I can see the scores have actually got worse or at best stood still rather than got better.

*This weeks Seniors stableford was won with 49 points and I know the player really well and his 14/13 handicap would be pretty reflective of his ability most weeks.

Going in that direction might be easier in the new system, but in my opinion to go down in handicap takes longer. I agree with some of what @oltimer is saying - in the old system you could shoot 42 points and then potentially be cut 2.4 shots straight away. From what I've seen of WHS though it takes at least two rounds to get that sort of cut if not more. Indeed you can even win a comp and not get cut at all if it pushes off a half decent round from the bottom of your record (which happened to me). In the old system if you win a comp you were pretty much guaranteed to be cut. And what you've painted as a positive for you also means that somebody could sandbag their handicap up by several shots in only a matter of weeks if they were so inclined.

Not saying the old system was perfect, it wasn't, but there are clear weaknesses in WHS.

 

[louise_a]

It’s the same at my club, 50 pts seems the norm now
As you say 41 isn’t top 10
Got me thinking about it.
At ours it’s not very penal unless you miss by miles ,this has an effect on the scores.
Pace of play seems more important than the set up of the course imo.
So virtually no rough means the low guys who hit the fairways a lot nothing has changed.
The high guys are not in much trouble missing fairways and can still score well.
This is just my opinion I might be wrong, but clubs that still have significant rough are not having these problems as much .
It’s a problem ,it’s putting low guys off the comps.

The fact we’re still debating WHS shows imo there is something wrong .
Some love it , some very clearly don’t as it’s made them uncompetitive.

Our rough is the same, and it has resulted in our course rating and slope being reduced at a recent re rating, this however will result in higher indexes going forward and make our members far more competitive in opens and other comps played at away courses.

 

[cliveb]

I keep seeing reports here about silly scores being posted, but I can't say I've noticed it personally. At my club most comps are won with net differentials no better than about -6, which is no different to how it used to be.

The thing that I like about WHS is that it does genuinely track a player's current form better than the old system. The old system resulted in huge cuts for those rare exceptional rounds. If you draw a graph of most players' handicaps under the old system they tended to have big drops followed by lengthy slow ramps back up. But the new lower handicap following a rare great round typically wasn't representative of their normal ability. After a big cut, you were very unlikely to post a decent net score for many rounds. (I personally recall being cut 6 shots overnight due to a -10 differential and an extra 2 shot ESR. I was basically stuffed for the next 6 months in terms of competitiveness). The fact that a stellar round doesn't result in a huge cut under WHS seems far more sensible wrt to the player's HCP index representing what he would normally be expected to score.

So why the outrageous scores some people are seeing? I don't think WHS is the cause. I think it's the influx of new players, some of whom will inevitably be given high starting handicaps but who are naturally gifted at sport. Hopefully once they have put in a full quota of scores, things will settle down.

And there's something else at play that I hesitate to mention, but have to say it. A lot of new players seem to have little understanding of the rules. Clubs cannot police their medals and stablefords enough to spot the illegal drops, failure to count airshots, etc. I'm not saying these players are deliberately cheating - they simply don't understand even the most basic rules.

 

[Swango1980]

I believe we were advised that in the transition lower handicappers would see their indexes reduce from their UHS 'number' and higher would see theirs increase. Coupled with the % increase that slope typically gives higher handicappers more shots, this must have initially increased the chances of higher handicappers of winning and possibly achieving some high scores.
It was assumed, I believe, that once things settled down order would be restored.
Maybe there has been a change in the balance of winners which is perhaps more equitable? Anecdotally we hear of many really low scores and it appears that many team competitions are won by higher indexes than before but citing that in some clubs things are absolutely fine and that in others comps are a nightmare isn't really moving the argument on. It would be good to hear of country or regional analysis to see the real picture.

I was always curious about that argument. When WHS came into force, it was already based on about a couple of years worth of qualifying scores submitted by current golfers. So, regular golfers should already have been given a fairly accurate handicap on Day 1. OK, there would be some subtle changes to how it was calculated going forward, such as any impacts related to PCC, but I suspect those would be marginal.

One of the pretty big flaws, in my opinion, was giving existing players with no real playing history an Index equal to their old handicap. In most clubs, as expected, the Index is actually a lot lower than the players old handicap, with the course handicap being more relatable to the old handicap. So, these players ended up with relatively higher increase to their course handicap than others. However, if these players hadn't already submitted 3 cards since Jan 2018, you'd wonder what the chances are they'd start submitting loads after WHS.

So, sure, in some cases it will settle down for some players if they start playing more and actually get a proper WHS Index. However, I'd suspect for the vast majority, settling down is not actually an issue. New golfers will always need a settling down period, as most will improve significantly. But, new golfers come along at any time, so any issue with their handicaps settling down is not linked to the launch date of WHS. It will simply be an ongoing issue.

 

[RRidges]

Playing 95% of my Golf at my home club for many years my hcap is based on playing this Course, couple of Ops and old age and my target now is to complete 18 holes not win anything off my 27 hcap so why do I have to play off
31 on yellow tees and 33 off whites after deducting 5% from them. the scores returned in Comps are nonsense wheras 42 points would once be in the prizes 52 is not rare, played a greensome and returned 61 and not even in the top 10,
Once in 20 years I had a 4 pointer now we have 5 pts and recently a 6 points on one hole. winner of winter league with best 8 from 10 scores counting was lowest 42 pts best 50 pts (but no hcap deductions), some have two shots on holes which they can reach in regulation. new members are winning comps until their hcap (35+) is adjusted down to their capabilities which is putting off many others from playing in them.

You are being a bit of a luddite if you can't see the reasoning behind the Slope feature that gives you more shots off the harder Whites than off the Yellows.
And you might have noticed over the years that maximum handicap has gone up every now and then - so improving high handicap players are more likely to have been appropriately handicapped in the first place than doubly so. I'm not sure of the actual progress of the maximum handicap though, as I'm from Aus and had always played under a WHS style handicap system. The Congu one was, indeed, foreign to me!
Unfortunately, your likelihood of winning comps anyway is curtailed, not only by your, hopefully gradual, degradation but also by the young guys starting the game with appropriate handicaps around 30-35 who are improving quickly - so score high stableford points. I'm nearly in the same position btw!

 

[rulefan]

The fact we’re still debating WHS shows imo there is something wrong .

No. It only means it is different. It is arguable that something was wrong before

 

[Swango1980]

It’s the same at my club, 50 pts seems the norm now
As you say 41 isn’t top 10
Got me thinking about it.
At ours it’s not very penal unless you miss by miles ,this has an effect on the scores.
Pace of play seems more important than the set up of the course imo.
So virtually no rough means the low guys who hit the fairways a lot nothing has changed.
The high guys are not in much trouble missing fairways and can still score well.
This is just my opinion I might be wrong, but clubs that still have significant rough are not having these problems as much .
It’s a problem ,it’s putting low guys off the comps.

The fact we’re still debating WHS shows imo there is something wrong .
Some love it , some very clearly don’t as it’s made them uncompetitive.

To be fair, I bet people were debating the old system, even up to its last day.

I doubt you will ever get the absolutely perfect system that pleases everyone. Furthermore, there are always likely to be elements that some people like, others dislike with sometimes no real middle ground. I'm sure any handicap system that is used will continually be monitored and tweaked over the many years in its operation.