Hcap system - I don`t get it .

[BiMGuy]

Going in that direction might be easier in the new system, but in my opinion to go down in handicap takes longer. I agree with some of what @oltimer is saying - in the old system you could shoot 42 points and then potentially be cut 2.4 shots straight away. From what I've seen of WHS though it takes at least two rounds to get that sort of cut if not more. Indeed you can even win a comp and not get cut at all if it pushes off a half decent round from the bottom of your record (which happened to me). In the old system if you win a comp you were pretty much guaranteed to be cut. And what you've painted as a positive for you also means that somebody could sandbag their handicap up by several shots in only a matter of weeks if they were so inclined.

Not saying the old system was perfect, it wasn't, but there are clear weaknesses in WHS.

It’s much easier to get to scratch now than it was under the old system. It only takes 8 rounds.

 

[Orikoru]

It’s much easier to get to scratch now than it was under the old system. It only takes 8 rounds.

Eight bloody good rounds in reasonably quick succession.

 

[BiMGuy]

Eight bloody good rounds in reasonably quick succession.

Yep, but it could take years of chipping away with a .1 cut under the old system.

 

[Orikoru]

Yep, but it could take years of chipping away with a .1 cut under the old system.

I suppose - but at least once you got there you knew you wouldn't be going back to 5 in a puff off smoke after a bad few weeks. I'm just not sure the capacity to fluctuate more wildly in your index is a good thing, but that's just my opinion. I'm not sure why they want it to only reflect your current form rather than your best ability like the old one did.

 

[hairball_89]

Yep, but it could take years of chipping away with a .1 cut under the old system.

As someone who won't ever get near single figures, let alone scratch... If you play 8 rounds in a row which average out at 0.0, why wouldn't you deserve to be called a scratch golfer? Presumably if you've done it 8in a row, 10, 12 or more shouldn't be wildly difficult?

 

[Swango1980]

I suppose - but at least once you got there you knew you wouldn't be going back to 5 in a puff off smoke after a bad few weeks. I'm just not sure the capacity to fluctuate more wildly in your index is a good thing, but that's just my opinion. I'm not sure why they want it to only reflect your current form rather than your best ability like the old one did.

When you say "they", I presume you mean the authorities of GB&I, given that you are comparing the old system over here with WHS.

If so, I'm not sure "they" necessarily wanted that. If you spoke to interested parties involved in handicapping in GB&I, maybe they had their own individual opinions on that. However, globally, that is the way the US system, for example, pretty much worked. And, so when implementing the global system, it would have effectively been a compromise over how the various different main handicapping systems that existed previously. What came out in the wash was WHS.

So, when moving to WHS, I doubt one of the big driving factors was to ensure handicaps more reflected form than potential. It was simply to have a global system. Obviously, as the resulting system reflected form more than our old system, and handicaps could go up quicker, then the company line of the likes of England Golf will be to say that is better, just to try and ensure there is a positive spin on any of the big changes that we feel compared to what we had before.

 

[jim8flog]

Going in that direction might be easier in the new system, but in my opinion to go down in handicap takes longer. I agree with some of what @oltimer is saying - in the old system you could shoot 42 points and then potentially be cut 2.4 shots straight away. From what I've seen of WHS though it takes at least two rounds to get that sort of cut if not more. Indeed you can even win a comp and not get cut at all if it pushes off a half decent round from the bottom of your record (which happened to me). In the old system if you win a comp you were pretty much guaranteed to be cut. And what you've painted as a positive for you also means that somebody could sandbag their handicap up by several shots in only a matter of weeks if they were so inclined.

Not saying the old system was perfect, it wasn't, but there are clear weaknesses in WHS.

42 points would only get me a 0.8 cut where I play under the old system. (par 71 SSS 69)

Worth remembering that the amount of the cut was handicap dependent back then.

Swings and roundabouts on the ups and downs. For me my last round was playing to handicap and I got a a one shot reduction. I have put in 21 scores so far this year and my handicap has only change within 2.2 shots high of 12 low of 9.8.

 

[jim8flog]

As I have said before it not so much the WHS that has had the big impact on winning scores it is the increase to the maximum H.I. of 54. However this increase to 54 came in in January 2018 two years before the WHS.

 

[clubchamp98]

No. It only means it is different. It is arguable that something was wrong before

That’s possible of course.
But in 125 yrs of my club nobody posted a sub 60 nett score in official competition.
Since WHS there has been 6 and one guy who shot 59 only came second!

 

[clubchamp98]

To be fair, I bet people were debating the old system, even up to its last day.

I doubt you will ever get the absolutely perfect system that pleases everyone. Furthermore, there are always likely to be elements that some people like, others dislike with sometimes no real middle ground. I'm sure any handicap system that is used will continually be monitored and tweaked over the many years in its operation.

Yes I do agree with this.
My main concern is the course has been more or less stripped of any rough.
This is because we have many new members who were running out of balls and time.
The really big scorers are not the high cappers it’s the ones who used to be off about 15/16 that are now 22/24 due to WHS.

 

[rulefan]

Yes I do agree with this.
My main concern is the course has been more or less stripped of any rough.
This is because we have many new members who were running out of balls and time.
The really big scorers are not the high cappers it’s the ones who used to be off about 15/16 that are now 22/24 due to WHS.

Have any individual 15/16 (22/24) cappers won more than once?
To go from 15 to 22 suggests the slope is nearly vertical.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

Stableford scores have no real relation to scores pre WHS, as most 15ish plus handicappers are a few Indexes higher than before due to many reason (Poor current form etc.), plus most then get a few more shots on course/playing handicap due to slope ratings and then if course rating is less than par everyone gets another shot or 2, this could result depending on the course obviously previous scores of 40 points now 44 points equivalent.
WHS has evened up the fairness on a high handicapper against a low handicapper on a one to one basis (which is what handicaps are for?), but a big competition with loads of entries and on average more 'higher handicappers' it's obvious that there's more chance of an exceptional round coming from one of the many.
Last week one of our players scored 49 points and is now index 21.4, and most are complaining that this not low enough and he is a bandit. but I pointed out that in the previous 20 competition rounds this is the only round that produced a score differential lower than 21.4. (no general play rounds)
Next week it will be someone else who produces his best round in the last 20, and he will then become the new 'Outlaw'.

 

[Imurg]

My impression of the new system vs the old system is that under the old system your handicap came down quicker and went up slower..
Under the new system it seems to me that it takes longer to come down but you go up quicker...
Just my impression, maybe right, maybe wrong...

 

[RRidges]

Stableford scores have no real relation to scores pre WHS, as most 15ish plus handicappers are a few Indexes higher than before due to many reason (Poor current form etc.), plus most then get a few more shots on course/playing handicap due to slope ratings and then if course rating is less than par everyone gets another shot or 2, this could result depending on the course obviously previous scores of 40 points now 44 points equivalent.

The bold bits are rubbish! Congu's handicapping was a Stableford metric! I'd bet you can't provide any stats that back up your 'many reasons' assertions re 15ish plus cappers! There might be more of them, and at higher handicaps because of an increase in Golf's popularity - is that's the case - or simply because of increasing average age of participants, also if that's the case. If course rating is less than Par, players effectively get fewer shots as Course and Playing Handicap are, effectively, reduced.
But I agree that folk with higher HIs generally get additional strokes after application of Slope and the CR addition is more visible - than SSS was. Both allowances are now included in he 'points scored' value returned from comps as opposed to being only applicable when handicap adjustments are made, so I would expect 3-ish more points to be scored by a 15HI player in a typical competition/course and twice that amount for a 30HI player.

 

[clubchamp98]

Have any individual 15/16 (22/24) cappers won more than once?
To go from 15 to 22 suggests the slope is nearly vertical.

No but there is always someone (having a good day’)

 

[Deleted member 3432]

My impression of the new system vs the old system is that under the old system your handicap came down quicker and went up slower..
Under the new system it seems to me that it takes longer to come down but you go up quicker...
Just my impression, maybe right, maybe wrong...

New system rewards crap golf, playing badly you know your handicap can shoot up quickly. Absolutely no incentive to go onto practice ground and work it out.

Just play more golf, get a load of shots back and before you know it you get your name on a board....

 

[Colin L]

New system rewards crap golf, playing badly you know your handicap can shoot up quickly. Absolutely no incentive to go onto practice ground and work it out.

Just play more golf, get a load of shots back and before you know it you get your name on a board....

The manipulation of the system by dishonest players doesn't signify anything.

 

[clubchamp98]

New system rewards crap golf, playing badly you know your handicap can shoot up quickly. Absolutely no incentive to go onto practice ground and work it out.

Just play more golf, get a load of shots back and before you know it you get your name on a board....

Yes I feel like this.
If your not quite on your game it dosnt matter it’s just a score that dosnt count in your eight.
In the old system you could fight to get in the buffer zone and not get your .1 back.

 

[clubchamp98]

The manipulation of the system by dishonest players doesn't signify anything.

It does it shows WHS is much easier to manipulate.

 

[Deleted member 3432]

The manipulation of the system by dishonest players doesn't signify anything.

I wasn't referring to dishonest players, this is the reality of how the system works in practice.