Hcap system - I don`t get it .

[rulefan]

I would certainly say from personal experience that US handicap indexes are not comparable with UK ones.

1) The system has only been in effect for a short time
2) there relatively few formal competitions played in the US
3) The GHIN scores are in practice virtually unverified.

 

[RRidges]

A scratch golfer in the US is about a 4-5 handicapper here in OZ, have had a few people from my club go to a US college and be off scratch but play Number one in the team, all the US players off plus handicaps could not break par, so how do they get plus handicaps ?

As an Aussie in US, I'd disagree with that. Though I've not experienced the college environment, the few US scratch level players I've observed have, indeed, been nearer scratch than 4-5. I agree that there's potential for cheating, but I've not known any of the above category to do so. Selective return of scores would seem to be the most likely offence imo.

 

[D-S]

1) The system has only been in effect for a short time
2) there relatively few formal competitions played in the US
3) The GHIN scores are in practice virtually unverified.

We have had now nearly two full seasons (in most parts of the world) under the new system which should be enough to flush out any scores or residual effects of the previous systems across the globe. How much longer do you think we need?
I agree with your other points and they are part of the basis of my belief that Handicap
Indexes are not directly comparable worldwide.

 

[AussieKB]

As an Aussie in US, I'd disagree with that. Though I've not experienced the college environment, the few US scratch level players I've observed have, indeed, been nearer scratch than 4-5. I agree that there's potential for cheating, but I've not known any of the above category to do so.

Am sure there are plenty of good scratch golfers, I was only relating to college players, have seen first hand them come to my course and play in a ranking OZ tournament and watch them shoot in the 78-85 range for 3 days in excellent weather, my friend played against Bill Haas while he was in college and even one a tournament back then, but his appraisal of the average college player was less then flattering.

 

[jim8flog]

Has this thread got anything whatsoever to do with rules? Shouldn't it be in 'The Lounge' along with the myriad other 'I don't like WHS/WHS is fine' threads?

go on the R&A website click the tab for rules and you will see Handicapping Rules

 

[wjemather]

If the Handicap Indexes are directly comparable the world over, why then does the UK and NI not allow 4BB scores and matchplay scores and other team format scores to be used in the calculation of handicaps? If the outcome is exactly the same shouldn’t they be allowable? The source data of any system is perhaps the most important component.
If it means that the end result is different then HI‘s are not directly comparable.

There are cultural differences in how the game is played around the world; where golf is not commonly played as individual stroke play it is necessary to accept scores from other formats in order to produce an accurate index. The only concern is if there is a significant difference in the result. Since it has been determined that there isn't, the indexes are comparable.

 

[wjemather]

Am sure there are plenty of good scratch golfers, I was only relating to college players, have seen first hand them come to my course and play in a ranking OZ tournament and watch them shoot in the 78-85 range for 3 days in excellent weather, my friend played against Bill Haas while he was in college and even one a tournament back then, but his appraisal of the average college player was less then flattering.

I'm no US college player, but I've been scratch and done this on many occasions without even leaving the country; and seen many, many other sub-scratch players do it also, especially on unfamiliar courses/grasses. It happens. It doesn't mean their handicaps are inaccurate or the result of nefarious activity.

 

[BiMGuy]

Am sure there are plenty of good scratch golfers, I was only relating to college players, have seen first hand them come to my course and play in a ranking OZ tournament and watch them shoot in the 78-85 range for 3 days in excellent weather, my friend played against Bill Haas while he was in college and even one a tournament back then, but his appraisal of the average college player was less then flattering.

Yet they constantly churn out the best players in the world!

 

[D-S]

There are cultural differences in how the game is played around the world; where golf is not commonly played as individual stroke play it is necessary to accept scores from other formats in order to produce an accurate index. The only concern is if there is a significant difference in the result. Since it has been determined that there isn't, the indexes are comparable.

That still doesn’t answer the question why some formats (which are extremely common in this part of the world) are specifically excluded from the source data for handicap calculation in the UK&I, particularly in a system where everyone believes that more data will achieve a more accurate result.

 

[RRidges]

Am sure there are plenty of good scratch golfers, I was only relating to college players, have seen first hand them come to my course and play in a ranking OZ tournament and watch them shoot in the 78-85 range for 3 days in excellent weather, my friend played against Bill Haas while he was in college and even one a tournament back then, but his appraisal of the average college player was less then flattering.

That wouldn't surprise me either. The experience of visiting another country is likely to have quite an effect on US college guys. Check out results in Palmer Cup matches held in Europe compared to those in US for example.

 

[wjemather]

That still doesn’t answer the question why some formats (which are extremely common in this part of the world) are specifically excluded from the source data for handicap calculation in the UK&I, particularly in a system where everyone believes that more data will achieve a more accurate result.

For several reasons, CONGU wanted to trial other formats (and MLS) before implementing for everyone - Ireland have being doing just that.

 

[RRidges]

Yet they constantly churn out the best players in the world!

They have far more opportunity in a competitive environment that progresses to the top Tour. The best do succeed, but there are lots of 'casualties' along the way. It's a situation comparable, in reverse, with Football in Europe vs (Soccer in) US. Tennis is set up similarly and churns out similar stars, with quite a few casualties along the way too.

 

[D-S]

For several reasons, CONGU wanted to trial other formats (and MLS) before implementing for everyone - Ireland have being doing just that.

Surely they have the biggest data and experience source readily available i.e. the U.S.A. If it is believed that the end result is currently ‘directly comparable’ why the need for any trial?

 

[wjemather]

Surely they have the biggest data and experience source readily available i.e. the U.S.A. If it is believed that the end result is currently ‘directly comparable’ why the need for any trial?

As hinted earlier, accepting scores from other formats, especially where holing out isn't required, is a big cultural change. Disquiet (horror may be more accurate) about the potential for adopting this has been evident on these forums.

 

[backwoodsman]

go on the R&A website click the tab for rules and you will see Handicapping Rules

Yes, but you know & I know what I meant. This is just yet more whingeing - on one side or the other - about WHS in general. Banish it to where it belongs.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

More whataboutery that has nothing to do with the content of the OP. I suggest you review player responsibilities (i).

Sorry. But I am almost 100% certain that if I submit six scores before my club championship I will be playing in it off a CH of at least 1, possibly, 2, higher than my current CH. Indeed I know that the two 5.8s I would lose are currently giving me a lower HI than my play merits. So why should I feel guilty about playing, and if that results in a HI that reflects my current play then fine…and I’ll add that I would NEVER deliberately mess up a round to achieve that goal. And some would accuse me of cheating?

 

[clubchamp98]

And here’s the rub, you always get the allegations by rumour or forum after the event. Perhaps the poster should have approached the committee with his allegations, or did he?

No I didn’t.
But as he didn’t actually do anything wrong ( under WHS) I can’t see what can be done.
All he has to say was “ I was only joking” end off story.
I was just highlighting how easy it is to do now.

 

[nickjdavis]

He obviously didn’t play badly by only getting one back???

How bad your recent scores are do not have an influence on your index until they become part of your best 8.

If your recent scores are really bad then your Index increases, (if one of your best 8 should drop out of your last 20) will largely be governed by the scores that are currently 9th/10th/11th best in your record.

My current index is 9.3....i could play ten rounds and shoot gross 90 in all of them and I would see an increase from 9.3 to 9.7 after the second round then an increase to 9.8 after the eighth round, 10.2 after the ninth and 10.7 after the tenth. In fact I'd have to play 13 rounds shooting 90 before one of those scores became part of my best 8.

 

[Old Skier]

No I didn’t.
But as he didn’t actually do anything wrong ( under WHS) I can’t see what can be done.
All he has to say was “ I was only joking” end off story.
I was just highlighting how easy it is to do now.

If you had reported it I hope it would have least been looked at which would mark his card for the future at the very least IMO.

 

[clubchamp98]

How bad your recent scores are do not have an influence on your index until they become part of your best 8.

If your recent scores are really bad then your Index increases, (if one of your best 8 should drop out of your last 20) will largely be governed by the scores that are currently 9th/10th/11th best in your record.

My current index is 9.3....i could play ten rounds and shoot gross 90 in all of them and I would see an increase from 9.3 to 9.7 after the second round then an increase to 9.8 after the eighth round, 10.2 after the ninth and 10.7 after the tenth. In fact I'd have to play 13 rounds shooting 90 before one of those scores became part of my best 8.

Yes but if your losing five good rounds and replacing with five bad ones you could go up significantly in a week.
The ones your losing are by date the further away.