Hcap system - I don`t get it .

[clubchamp98]

If you had reported it I hope it would have least been looked at which would mark his card for the future at the very least IMO.

If I saw him cheating I would call him out.
But going to comittiee that he might do it no .
Wasn’t just me present when he said it so think his reputation has a mark on it anyway now.

 

[nickjdavis]

Yes but if your losing five good rounds and replacing with five bad ones you could go up significantly in a week.
The ones your losing are by date the further away.

It depends on how bad the ones are that replace the rounds you are losing....most golfers last 20 rounds will consists of their best eight, maybe half a dozen shockers and half a dozen in between....if you lose one of your best eight it will be immediately replaced by the "best of the in-between" scores....it wont be replaced by an out and out shocker.

It all depends on what the scores are and how they are distributed across your recent (last 20) scoring record. From what I see in our clubs handicap records, the majority of golfers have their scores reasonably distributed across their last 20....sure good scores will come in clumps as players find a bit of form or the weather is helpful to playing good golf, but in general steady players who are not vastly improving or declning will show some degree of consistency in their scoring patterns.

I'll admit though, that it is difficult to generalise as everyone is different and I reckon it would not be difficult to find in my clubs records, an example of a player who has his best 8 scores appearing in say his oldest 10 or 12 rounds, with the rest of his scores being significantly higher....in which case yes, his index will go up rapidly.

 

[D-S]

I know someone who had an injury (very genuine), carried on playing quite correctly but was hampered. Originally he was around 5, in 6 or so weeks was up to 9 (he was the first player that I was aware of who had a soft cap in place). Won quite a lot on the way back down when his injury cleared up. Nothing wrong in any of this but the system reflects current ability which at the time for him was not what it had been so was able to capitalise on it. No idea how this could be addressed, perhaps just one of those things but it did show how, if you want, you could easily (and quickly) ‘game‘ the system.

 

[wjemather]

I know someone who had an injury (very genuine), carried on playing quite correctly but was hampered. Originally he was around 5, in 6 or so weeks was up to 9 (he was the first player that I was aware of who had a soft cap in place). Won quite a lot on the way back down when his injury cleared up. Nothing wrong in any of this but the system reflects current ability which at the time for him was not what it had been so was able to capitalise on it. No idea how this could be addressed, perhaps just one of those things but it did show how, if you want, you could easily (and quickly) ‘game‘ the system.

Sounds like a situation where the players index could (perhaps should) have been frozen during their recovery.

 

[D-S]

Sounds like a situation where the players index could (perhaps should) have been frozen during their recovery.

How would the committee go about that?
People have a series of injuries which affect their ability all the time, would you be asking everyone to report current injuries with prognoses? Sounds pretty unmanageable and, if the question were asked, the flood of emails from our Senior section alone would drown the committee.

 

[RRidges]

I know someone who had an injury (very genuine), carried on playing quite correctly but was hampered. Originally he was around 5, in 6 or so weeks was up to 9 (he was the first player that I was aware of who had a soft cap in place). Won quite a lot on the way back down when his injury cleared up. Nothing wrong in any of this but the system reflects current ability which at the time for him was not what it had been so was able to capitalise on it. No idea how this could be addressed, perhaps just one of those things but it did show how, if you want, you could easily (and quickly) ‘game‘ the system.

Surely, in these circumstances it doesn't reflect current ability! But his ability as a combination of current and pre-injury and as affected by the injury! WHS is probably faster reacting - at least coming down - than Congu was. Congu was also possibly slower going up too, depending on the time period or number of registered scores involved.
There'll be all sorts of anomalies like the above. It's simply a case of living with the new system, as it's here to stay!

 

[wjemather]

How would the committee go about that?
People have a series of injuries which affect their ability all the time, would you be asking everyone to report current injuries with prognoses? Sounds pretty unmanageable and, if the question were asked, the flood of emails from our Senior section alone would drown the committee.

By following Rule 7.1a.

 

[D-S]

By following Rule 7.1a.

So you recommend that a committee requires that all players request, whenever they have an injury, a review to ascertain to that a temporary or permanent injury might affect their scoring potential or to tell them whenever they think someone else may have such an injury?
Do you think that this can honestly happen?
If someone says, ‘I’ve hurt my shoulder I think you should freeze my handicap until I feel better’ what should the committee do, accede to every request? Ask for a medical diagnosis?
Apart from this it is, of course, strongly recommended that a review is conducted annually but in cases such as I cited this is extremely unlikely to be at the correct time

 

[wjemather]

So you recommend that a committee requires that all players request, whenever they have an injury, a review to ascertain to that a temporary or permanent injury might affect their scoring potential or to tell them whenever they think someone else may have such an injury?

No.

 

[D-S]

No.

So what do you recommend the committee do, or should have done in the situation I reported?

 

[Biggleswade Blue]

What should the handicap system be, or should all golf be played off scratch?

Whatever handicap system is (WHS, CONGU or something else) is arbitrary. There is no Absolute Truth in this.

Whatever rules are in place, someone can break them, and someone somewhere will think the undefinable spirit of them has been broken, even if they’ve been followed to the letter.

“That free kick was a great effort. I know it missed but you deserved a goal for that so we will call it a goal.”

 

[wjemather]

So what do you recommend the committee do, or should have done in the situation I reported?

Gather all available information and use reasonable best judgement, both with respect to whether the player request a review, and whether the committee take any action.

 

[D-S]

Gather all available information and use reasonable best judgement, both with respect to whether the player request a review, and whether the committee take any action.

Thank you - this, of course, is absolutely fine in theory and on the page but in the real world totally unworkable.
I look forward to recommending to my committee that they ‘gather all available information’ on all members at all times.

 

[jim8flog]

Gather all available information and use reasonable best judgement, both with respect to whether the player request a review, and whether the committee take any action.

However if the player requests a review they have to take 7.1a/2 in to consideration.

I am some who suffers from frequent temporary illness/injury and there would be no point asking the committee for a review as I am the main handicap person and we only meet once a month at best by which time I may have recovered. Last year I went up and above my soft cap due to injury but always hope to bring it back down again, just these days it never goes back anywhere near my lowest.

 

[Swango1980]

Thank you - this, of course, is absolutely fine in theory and on the page but in the real world totally unworkable.
I look forward to recommending to my committee that they ‘gather all available information’ on all members at all times.

Don't worry. Of course it is nonsense for a handicap Committee to keep track of any injuries members have, determine how long they will effect them and freeze their handicap accordingly.

Besides, if a golfer is injured, and form slips, is the entire point of WHS to more quickly reflect that?

 

[wjemather]

Thank you - this, of course, is absolutely fine in theory and on the page but in the real world totally unworkable.
I look forward to recommending to my committee that they ‘gather all available information’ on all members at all times.

Only when a review is requested, and reviews should only be requested when deemed necessary.

 

[D-S]

Only when a review is requested, and reviews should only be requested when deemed necessary.

Only when a review is requested, and reviews should only be requested when deemed necessary.

Can you define when a review is ‘deemed necessary’? Also who deems it?

 

[Alan Clifford]

In next six rounds I’ll lose two 5.8s. I very much doubt I’ll be able to replace them with similar as these rounds reflected my stretch ability (and old system handicap would have reflected that ability); but at the moment I’m not scoring that well and I’ll lose at least one of them before the club championship in a couple of weeks and my CH will likely go up.

I could put in six cards and lose them both, and there’s a possibility that my CH would go up by 2 shots, though I won’t. But if I did am I manipulating or just looking to get to a HI that reflects my current playing to give myself a better chance of doing well in the championship nett prize.

Put in all your casual cards. That is how the system is designed. If good scores are dropping off and you can't replace them, then the system is working.

 

[rulefan]

Put in all your casual cards. That is how the system is designed. If good scores are dropping off and you can't replace them, then the system is working.

Providing SilH acts with integrity as required by Appendix A, which I'm sure he does.

 

[RRidges]

In next six rounds I’ll lose two 5.8s. I very much doubt I’ll be able to replace them with similar as these rounds reflected my stretch ability (and old system handicap would have reflected that ability); but at the moment I’m not scoring that well and I’ll lose at least one of them before the club championship in a couple of weeks and my CH will likely go up.

I could put in six cards and lose them both, and there’s a possibility that my CH would go up by 2 shots, though I won’t. But if I did am I manipulating or just looking to get to a HI that reflects my current playing to give myself a better chance of doing well in the championship nett prize.

Just act as if you don't know the state of your scores. Play and put in scores just as you do normally and don't think about the effect of scores!