RGDave
Money List Winner
Puts helmet on and prepares for incoming!!
No missiles from me. I agree 100% with 99% of your post!!!
Handicaps
- Thread starter Macster
- Start date
No missiles from me. I agree 100% with 99% of your post!!!
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
If you play golf to win prizes then get on the tour and stop whining and take your ego with you. If you play for your own enjoyment then what does it matter what other players handicap is, the basic game is you against the course, the targets and goals should be personal as is the enjoyment. Peace and love, peace and love.
I do this every time I play casual golf but the purpose of a competition is to compete against everyone else and I enter to try to win. Just like any other competitive sport.
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
Puts helmet on and prepares for incoming!!
Gets my vote, I'd have met my single figures target a month ago with this system
bobmac
Major Champion
Why oh why oh why.
are handicap secretaries discouraged so much from cutting people's handicaps?
All this nonesense about non qualifiers and yellow tees is just rubbish.
No wonder people's handicaps lag behind their playing ability when they can only get cut on those special days when the competition is off the white tees, no preffered lies, no temps, not above 21 deg or below 15 deg, has to be a Saturday or Sunday and you get your great great great grandfather to sign your card.
If the RandA and Congu got together and gave h/cap secs. a freer reign to be able to cut people on casual bounce games, the problem of inaccurate handicaps could all but disappear overnight.
are handicap secretaries discouraged so much from cutting people's handicaps?
All this nonesense about non qualifiers and yellow tees is just rubbish.
No wonder people's handicaps lag behind their playing ability when they can only get cut on those special days when the competition is off the white tees, no preffered lies, no temps, not above 21 deg or below 15 deg, has to be a Saturday or Sunday and you get your great great great grandfather to sign your card.
If the RandA and Congu got together and gave h/cap secs. a freer reign to be able to cut people on casual bounce games, the problem of inaccurate handicaps could all but disappear overnight.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
I don't want my handicap based on bounce games. It would be daft. There is no standard scratch, I am playing make or break golf, and having a laugh. Serious stuff is for comps, and if you can't cope with comps, then that is your problem. It doesn't make you a bandit. Cutting h/caps off bounce games would make comps even more difficult. Lets be honest, if you can't play to 20 in a comp, cutting you to 9 isn't going to help.
I think the current system is fine.
I get the hump when at the end of one year the h/cap sec cuts me a shot for general play, and then next year gives me a shot for general play. Leave me alone, and it will sort itself out.
I think the current system is fine.
I get the hump when at the end of one year the h/cap sec cuts me a shot for general play, and then next year gives me a shot for general play. Leave me alone, and it will sort itself out.
Ethan
Money List Winner
The UK handicap system is not a measure of your Sunday best ability. It is an estimate of the score that you should score approx 20-25% of the time. Here is why:
Basically the handicap is a summary statistic. It combines data into an "average". Now, people who know about stats know there are lots of different types of average, with various different types of rules governing them. In this case, the handicap is a moving average which is adjusted by each new score. But the adjustment is assymetrical. A bad score has less effect than a good score. This is because most players score in a range around their handicap. The range is invariably skewed, i.e. an 8 will score 90 from time to time, +12 to handicap, but never score 66, -12. lead to distortions.
Consistency is a factor too. A player who plays off 8 on a course with SSS 70, and scores 78 every time will not see any change in handicap. Another 8 who scores a mix of scores between 75 and 81, averaging 78, will see their handicap slowly reduce.
The net effect of all this is that your handicap is around the 20-25th centile of your scores, i.e. you will have 3 or 4 rounds above handicap for each one below. If this is not happening, your handicap should rise until it does.
Basically the handicap is a summary statistic. It combines data into an "average". Now, people who know about stats know there are lots of different types of average, with various different types of rules governing them. In this case, the handicap is a moving average which is adjusted by each new score. But the adjustment is assymetrical. A bad score has less effect than a good score. This is because most players score in a range around their handicap. The range is invariably skewed, i.e. an 8 will score 90 from time to time, +12 to handicap, but never score 66, -12. lead to distortions.
Consistency is a factor too. A player who plays off 8 on a course with SSS 70, and scores 78 every time will not see any change in handicap. Another 8 who scores a mix of scores between 75 and 81, averaging 78, will see their handicap slowly reduce.
The net effect of all this is that your handicap is around the 20-25th centile of your scores, i.e. you will have 3 or 4 rounds above handicap for each one below. If this is not happening, your handicap should rise until it does.
Fyldewhite
Tour Winner
Fully agree. The system is based on statistical analysis of scores. The only fault with it is caused by clubs not running as many events for handicap qualifying as they should. Any stats based activity works best with a large sample and CONGU are very clear in that all comps should be for handicap qualifying unless there are very good reasons for them not to be. For example, we never played our weekly Seniors' comps (yellow tees) for handicap adjustment except for 4 medals they played off the whites. A couple of years ago we had the yellow course rated and now run around 25-30 comps extra for handicap adjustment just in the seniors section alone.
viscount17
Money List Winner
yes you can, because in getting that 96 you will almost certainly have bogied many, parred a few and maybe birdied the odd one. you will also have had two or three real disasters. but, in getting the pars and birdies you will have demonstrated that it's entirely possible, with the gods on your side, to par or birdie more than just a few.
how else to account for the big cuts of 3 or 4 shots?
there will inevitably come a point where these big leaps will no longer occur but by then you won't be scoring so many 96's and your card will see as many birdies as bogies.
B
birdieman
Guest
Here is a link to the Congu website's UHS myths page. Some folks should give it a read.
http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=25
This is as good a system as we can make. My only beef would be players should return a minimum of 10 cards in the year, 3 just isn't enough to gauge someones ability.
http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=25
This is as good a system as we can make. My only beef would be players should return a minimum of 10 cards in the year, 3 just isn't enough to gauge someones ability.
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
Personally, I don't believe anyone off the right handicap, even with the god's on their side, should shoot 22 shots below their handicap (I know the figures discussed here are plucked out of the air).
I've been playing golf for a long time, I've had a bit of luck on the way, I've had some bad luck as well but I've never had a round that I wouldn't expect to match again. Maybe I've always been off an accurate handicap I don't know but I've never played a round of golf I didn't think I was capable of. I'll accept anyone can play 8 below their handicap (not that I ever have), maybe even 12 below on the odd occasion. Anything more than that then that person is playing off the wrong handicap. You simply do not get that lucky on a golf course IMHO.
RGDave
Money List Winner
Agreed.
However, I agree with Bob that "proper" (but non-q) comps played off yellow ought to get a look in.
When I joined my club, I was given 11.5 despite my best score being 14 over SSS. No triples, no "stableford adjustments" just a plain 14 over par best card.
I have never had even a single 0.1 increase playing off a measured course (yellow) when there were enough players to establish a CSS. If my best score was still 14 over par (regardless of tee) you'd find me knocking on the door for my +2.5 shots please, and if I'd had some significant scores under 11.5, I'd also be asking for an adjustment....
As it is, I play between 11 and 16 over SSS almost every time, so I'm saying nothing. Some players think I should be cut because my average is too close to 12 over CSS. If I played 10 over par, 12 over SSS every week, I'd still not be asking for a cut.
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
How have you never had a 0.1 increase when shooting 16 over CSS off 12
Smiffy
Grand Slam Winner
In Scotland last week-end I played four rounds of golf. My best day was on the Sunday at Nairn. Strange course, crap greens, raining. I played out of my boots. 35 points with 2 blobs. I was as chuffed as monkeys. As I walked off the 18th I had a spring in my step. Jokingly, my score was called a "bandit" score. My 27 points around Spey Valley, 20 around Castle Stuart and 25 around Boat of Garten were bad rounds for me. But my 35 around Nairn was a great score and I was justifiably (sp?) pleased with the way I had played. I worked hard for every point.
What cheeses me off is when other people walk off the 18th green after scoring 43 points and say "my putting was crap today"... they expect to score over 40 points every time they go out. I haven't got a 40 point round in me (I don't think) yet other people think it is a God given right to score that well and are totally hacked off when they don't.
I don't care if the can't score 40 plus points in a club comp or fall apart when they play in a medal. If they can do it with alarming regularity in bounce games, their handicaps are too high. Simples.
What cheeses me off is when other people walk off the 18th green after scoring 43 points and say "my putting was crap today"... they expect to score over 40 points every time they go out. I haven't got a 40 point round in me (I don't think) yet other people think it is a God given right to score that well and are totally hacked off when they don't.
I don't care if the can't score 40 plus points in a club comp or fall apart when they play in a medal. If they can do it with alarming regularity in bounce games, their handicaps are too high. Simples.
jammydodger
Tour Winner
Wouldnt bother getting out of bed for 35 points Smiffy
HRC99
Journeyman Pro
That's a really good link with some very interesting stats on it.
RGDave
Money List Winner
How have you never had a 0.1 increase when shooting 16 over CSS off 12
I know.
I never pushed the issue though as it didn't seem worth it.
If I'd had 20-30 +0.1s over the months/years, I'd have only got cut as soon as I was off 13 anyway.....
It's all about the "magic numbers". Off 12, I can play to 10 and not get cut. Off 13, if I play to 10, I get -0.2
By my reckoning, I'd just yo-yo endlessly, so the fact I've only had 2 x cuts and less than 10 x +0.1s in nearly 3 years actually suits me.
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
How have you never had a 0.1 increase when shooting 16 over CSS off 12
I know.
I never pushed the issue though as it didn't seem worth it.
If I'd had 20-30 +0.1s over the months/years, I'd have only got cut as soon as I was off 13 anyway.....
It's all about the "magic numbers". Off 12, I can play to 10 and not get cut. Off 13, if I play to 10, I get -0.2
By my reckoning, I'd just yo-yo endlessly, so the fact I've only had 2 x cuts and less than 10 x +0.1s in nearly 3 years actually suits me.
The point is, your club aren't calculating handicaps correctly, which means they're not following CONGU rules which means all your handicaps are invalid. That surely can't be right can it?
RGDave
Money List Winner
No. I've mislead you clearly. I rarely play in "qualifying" comps. If I was under my h'cap or out of the buffer zone in a qualifying comp, then it would get adjusted. The trouble is that 3 out of 4 Sunday games and midweeks are not qualifying.
That's why I agreed with Bob about establishing a CSS off any measured course, regardless of tee.
HawkeyeMS
Ryder Cup Winner
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