Handicap

[rulefan]

Don't think you need a handicap to get a county card, just need to be a member of a club in the scheme. Ask your club sec.

It depends of the hosting club. Many require a CONGU handicap.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Never heard of a winter handicap before. Is it Congu advice, or even allowed to do so ?

With us, handicaps are the official one all year round. In the winter, (apart from the annual review), no increases are applied, but reductions to the official hc are applied even though the comps are non qualifying. Effectively general play adjustments for people who win or have high placings in several comps. But that stays their official CHD handicap even when qualifying golf resumes.

Why do you only reduce handicaps in the winter and not increase handicaps in winter if they are all non-qualifying comps?

Surely we should be using CONGU Rules or not, ours are all non-qualifiers as per CONGU Rules, therefore we devised our own “handicap rules” for the winter period.

Calling them Winter Handicaps is just a local term.

I await someone who understands CONGU better than me, but I don’t think your Club is doing it properly and are using the General Play Rule unfairly.

 

[rulefan]

Never heard of a winter handicap before. Is it Congu advice, or even allowed to do so ?

With us, handicaps are the official one all year round. In the winter, (apart from the annual review), no increases are applied, but reductions to the official hc are applied even though the comps are non qualifying. Effectively general play adjustments for people who win or have high placings in several comps. But that stays their official CHD handicap even when qualifying golf resumes.

Completely contrary to CONGU rules.
Does your club ignore the rules of golf also?

 

[Backsticks]

Completely contrary to CONGU rules.

Which ones ?

 

[rulefan]

Which ones ?

What are the grounds for deeming these competitions to be non-qualifying?

It is against the spirit and intent of the system to adjust the Terms of Competition deliberately, so that it is rendered non-qualifying on a technicality.
A Non Qualifying Competition is a competition when the requirements of a Qualifying Competition are not satisfied.
In exceptional circumstances only, or with the authority of the Union, the committee in charge of a competition may declare it a Non Qualifying Competition ....

Clause 1 every golf club or handicapping authority will, whenever possible run stroke play competitions as qualifying competitions, calculate a Competition Scratch Score and make all handicap adjustments strictly in accordance with the system;

Note to 17.1 A club does not have the authority to run competitions in which handicaps can be reduced but not increased. When a competition is declared Non Qualifying handicaps can neither be reduced nor increased.

Clause 17.3 The declaration that a competition is a Non Qualifying Competition disqualifies all scores returned in that competition from being used directly for handicap purposes. Thus a player returning a score below his handicap will not have his Exact Handicap reduced.

Note to 17.3/1 It is a fundamental tenet of the UHS that handicap adjustments can only be applied in Qualifying Competitions when handicaps are adjusted, upwards and downwards as appropriate, in relation to the CSS. To create a situation where handicaps can only be reduced, would distort the balance on which the system is based. To reduce the handicaps of those players scoring below the SSS in Non-Qualifying Competitions is considered to be an unacceptable abuse of the system. To permit the UHS to operate as intended, all competitions should be run, whenever possible, as Qualifying Competitions.

Appendix M The Handicap Committee must not use General Play Adjustments as a ‘punishment’ (or ‘reward’) for success in either match or stroke play competitions (unless other evidence exists to support an adjustment);

 

[2blue]

Yes, we have 'Winter H/caps'....... there' an option on Club Systems V1 that allows normal adjustments to it which get reported through HDIDo but are not sent to CDH. Un-tick the box in early April when Qualifiers start & everything reverts to CONGU H/caps as they were before Winter. Has worked exceedingly well for us though will come to a halt with WHS. Guess we'll have to implement something on the lines of pauldj42

 

[2blue]

We go on Winter Handicaps:
Everyone starts with their “proper” handicap on 01 Nov or nearest saturday when we move to Winter tees, shorter course, preferred lies and teeing up!
Alternate 4BBB and Ind Stab Comps on sat/sun until April.
Winners get cut 15%, Runners Up cut 10%.

First weekend in April or when conditions allow we move back to normal tees and everyone reverts to “proper” handicap.

All Winter Comps are non-qualifiers as course set up/Comp rules don’t meet qualifying criteria.

After a few weeks it must be quite a task ensuring everyone is on their 'correct' H/cap?
Also do they, who've been cut, then get shots back?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

After a few weeks it must be quite a task ensuring everyone is on their 'correct' H/cap?
Also do they, who've been cut, then get shots back?

Results are printed as per normal, those 1st and 2nd are adjusted as a Clause 23 adjustment to show their “Winter” Handicap reduction.

Full Handicap list printed every monday showing “winter” handicap, also on noticeboard is the “Master” actual list printed prior to winter comps.

All Handicaps revert to “pre-winter” as stated above.

Never had any issues as far as I’m aware over last 10yrs and winter comps remain popular.

 

[Backsticks]

What are the grounds for deeming these competitions to be non-qualifying?

It is against the spirit and intent of the system to adjust the Terms of Competition deliberately, so that it is rendered non-qualifying on a technicality.
A Non Qualifying Competition is a competition when the requirements of a Qualifying Competition are not satisfied.
In exceptional circumstances only, or with the authority of the Union, the committee in charge of a competition may declare it a Non Qualifying Competition ....

Clause 1 every golf club or handicapping authority will, whenever possible run stroke play competitions as qualifying competitions, calculate a Competition Scratch Score and make all handicap adjustments strictly in accordance with the system;

Note to 17.1 A club does not have the authority to run competitions in which handicaps can be reduced but not increased. When a competition is declared Non Qualifying handicaps can neither be reduced nor increased.

Clause 17.3 The declaration that a competition is a Non Qualifying Competition disqualifies all scores returned in that competition from being used directly for handicap purposes. Thus a player returning a score below his handicap will not have his Exact Handicap reduced.

Note to 17.3/1 It is a fundamental tenet of the UHS that handicap adjustments can only be applied in Qualifying Competitions when handicaps are adjusted, upwards and downwards as appropriate, in relation to the CSS. To create a situation where handicaps can only be reduced, would distort the balance on which the system is based. To reduce the handicaps of those players scoring below the SSS in Non-Qualifying Competitions is considered to be an unacceptable abuse of the system. To permit the UHS to operate as intended, all competitions should be run, whenever possible, as Qualifying Competitions.

Appendix M The Handicap Committee must not use General Play Adjustments as a ‘punishment’ (or ‘reward’) for success in either match or stroke play competitions (unless other evidence exists to support an adjustment);

Reduced number of holes available, course too short due to winter greens, bunkers out of play due to water. This is not rendering competitions nq on a technicality.

But thats by the way really. General play adjustments are permitted when the hc committee deems a players h/c to be too high, and its duty is to reduce it to the one it judges correct. And a pattern of results even in nq comps can indicate such a case. With about 100 golfers in the weekly comp, 3-6 golfers would be cut due to their results through the maybe dozen nq comps we play most winters.
Rather than against the Congu rules, it seems that it is the responsibility of the hc committee to do just that.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Reduced number of holes available, course too short due to winter greens, bunkers out of play due to water. This is not rendering competitions nq on a technicality.

But thats by the way really. General play adjustments are permitted when the hc committee deems a players h/c to be too high, and its duty is to reduce it to the one it judges correct. And a pattern of results even in nq comps can indicate such a case. With about 100 golfers in the weekly comp, 3-6 golfers would be cut due to their results through the maybe dozen nq comps we play most winters.
Rather than against the Congu rules, it seems that it is the responsibility of the hc committee to do just that.

Notes 17.1 & 17.3 say different to your hc committee.

They have no duty in non-qualifying comps.

 

[Backsticks]

Notes 17.1 & 17.3 say different to your hc committee.

They have no duty in non-qualifying comps.

Notes 17.1 & 17.3 say different to your hc committee.

They have no duty in non-qualifying comps.

Section 17 applies to qualifying competitions. Not being qualifying competitions, that section does not apply to what they are doing.


They are applying the rules of Section 23 in these cases. Section 17.3 does referemce this possibility.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Section 17 applies to qualifying competitions. Not being qualifying competitions, that section does not apply to what they are doing.


They are applying the rules of Section 23 in these cases. Section 17.3 does referemce this possibility.

You’ve stated they are non-qualifiers, if they are non-qualifiers CONGU states you can’t use the information to adjust handicaps, except maybe during the Annual Review.
How can anyone justify only cutting people anyway? There’s as much chance of someone having a bad winter as someone having a good winter!

Clause 23 clearly states a General Play Reduction should only be used in exceptional circumstances between Annual Reviews, do you honestly believe playing well over the winter in non-qualifying comps are exceptional circumstances?

 

[rulefan]

Reduced number of holes available, course too short due to winter greens, bunkers out of play due to water. This is not rendering competitions nq on a technicality.

But thats by the way really. General play adjustments are permitted when the hc committee deems a players h/c to be too high, and its duty is to reduce it to the one it judges correct. And a pattern of results even in nq comps can indicate such a case. With about 100 golfers in the weekly comp, 3-6 golfers would be cut due to their results through the maybe dozen nq comps we play most winters.
Rather than against the Congu rules, it seems that it is the responsibility of the hc committee to do just that.

I suggest you check with EG.

 

[Rlburnside]

We run a stapleford winter comp. best 4 scores count,play anytime with cuts respective of your division at anything over 36 points, works well.

 

[rulefan]

We run a stapleford winter comp. best 4 scores count,play anytime with cuts respective of your division at anything over 36 points, works well.

Is this just 'winter handicap' or CONGU handicap?

 

[Rlburnside]

Is this just 'winter handicap' or CONGU handicap?

It’s just a winter h/c for N/Qs, revert back to official h/c at the start of season

 

[rulefan]

 

[jim8flog]

We went the simpler route years ago.

We have a measured course certificate for our winter tees and only go to non qualifiers if there are more than 2 temporary greens.

 

[Backsticks]

Just an update on this one after chatting to one of our handicap committee over the weekend.
Apparently, the branches of the golfing unions do audits of clubs handicaps from time to time, and this was the case a couple of years ago in our club. HC committee and Captain attended and went through records and systems as well as the officials quizzing the hc sec on various points. The general play adjustments for NQ comps came up and were passed as all in order by the two officials (we are in Ulster, so it was GUI - maybe different interpretations in different regions).