Handicap, which tees?

[Bigfoot]

If we used slope rating, every tee - white or yellow would give a different handicap to use for the day. Every time I play in France, because I am off 12 - ie below 15, I have to play off whites while higher handicaps play off yellows. I also get more shots because the slope is 146 off whites. those playing off yellows get more shots but calculated from a slope of 136. Each club has a board outside with a table to check what handicap you should play off, based on your exact handicap.

ie - 146/113 x 11.7 if 11.7 is your handicap.= 15.11 . So i play off 15 off whites in France at Belle Dune.

 

[bobmac]

Are you suggesting 2 handicaps Bobmac?

No, just one handicap.
But it would be calculated from the tees you use in everyday play and not the tees you use just once a month.
Surely that would give you a more accurate handicap ?

 

[Bigfoot]

No, just one handicap.
But it would be calculated from the tees you use in everyday play and not the tees you use just once a month.
Surely that would give you a more accurate handicap ?

Exactly what happens in Europe.

 

[duncan mackie]

duncan mackie what is an esa? I'm not a fan of spa's just because I don't really agree with stableford's. I think you should count your shots and se what you've scored, if you want social golf play a betterball not a stab.

How does slope rating relate to sss? Can they not work together or is it one and nto the other?

ESA = Exceptional Score Adjustment - introduced into the US system first, and currently on trial with CONGU (except Scotland). Basically it's an automated approach to the function the Handicap Committee are already supposed to be doing in respect of fast improving players where the system simply can't keep up. You need to produce 4 under or better twice in close succession to trigger it, and it's not hugely reflective ie it doesn't zap you straight to the score you last achieved or anything like that.

Whether you agree with stablefords or not the crux of the system is actually designed to bring the various categories into line, rather than suggesting that stableford is better or worse. A higher handicaper playing a course that severely penalises their weak shot, that visits one that doesn't, could play 10 shots better than their handicap without real improvement; focusing on scores fundamentally appropriate to the handicap range resolves this. It has negligible impact on cat 1, occassional on cat 2 etc. It also has the convienent side effect that it brings handicaps better into line for matchplay.

SSS is a course rating based on the capabilities of a scr golfer, and how the layout and hazards would impact on his scoring in addition to just course length. Slope, as used in the US and other systems, considers the impact of these same factors against an 18 handicap player - on some courses it may have no impact, on others it could be significant! The course rating approach is fundamentally the same across both systems, although it gets represented and applied differently - which has the unfortunate side effect of a handicap only having a relative (to the course it's based on) meaning - wey used to have similar, if you are old enough to remember having to adjust handicaps when competing at other courses...

you could combine the best of both systems quite easily now that everything is computerised, and to a degree they are coming together all the time. however there are still some pretty large underlying differences in the primary use of handicaps and nature of the golf played between the users of the systems. I would like to see a consideration given, within CONGU UHS, to the impact of course elements on other than scr golfer ability - but the statistics suggest that so few golfers compete anywhere other than at their home club so the effort involved is unlikely to be expended!

 

[duncan mackie]

No, just one handicap.
But it would be calculated from the tees you use in everyday play and not the tees you use just once a month.
Surely that would give you a more accurate handicap ?

CONGU would argue that it would be the same handicap for both as the SSS differential would resolve differences. I agree that, whilst for Scr golfers this may well be the case over most 'normal' courses, it's not the case at cat 3 - the range of different ways to be 'an 18' can interact vastly differently with different types of course and hazard layout.

 

[SGC001]

More accurate for everyday use probably, but surely not for comps; where prizes are given and people are selected to represent clubs / counties, countries. I think the handicap needs to be accurate for competitions.

Some clubs allow white tees for practice, would they have an advantage over clubs in comps (if it is truyly harder off whit than sss alone would suggest), yet not for low handicap selection criteria?

Off yellow pots I think people should adjust accordingly rather than just transfer over. I think as it seems do a few others that the differnece in sss does not reflect how much easier the course is for the majority of players.

A few strategic yards here or there and trouble been designed for use of the competition tees have more of an impact on sss than is reflected in it. Both my old courses are easier of the yellows and substansially so compared to sss differences (1 maybe 3 shots so).

I suppose the other argument that may be put is that as handicaps don't reflect your average play, they may be suited to yellow pots (I still more like 3/4's)?

 

[Little Jockey]

At my club, members always play off the whites. I can see the point of the yellows for members unless the club only likes you to play off the whites for comps.

The only thing that changes for us in medals is the pins disappear into a horrible position!!!

 

[SGC001]

If we used slope rating, every tee - white or yellow would give a different handicap to use for the day. Every time I play in France, because I am off 12 - ie below 15, I have to play off whites while higher handicaps play off yellows. I also get more shots because the slope is 146 off whites. those playing off yellows get more shots but calculated from a slope of 136. Each club has a board outside with a table to check what handicap you should play off, based on your exact handicap.

ie - 146/113 x 11.7 if 11.7 is your handicap.= 15.11 . So i play off 15 off whites in France at Belle Dune.

So the slope is reflected in different tee use, which maybe helps with speed of play?

The 146 is the slope what's the 113?

O/t I've played Belle Dune, couldn't get a buggy reserved and one of our party was disabled so had a trolley and they just about managed 6, we palyed the rest. It was a while ago not a bad course iirc.

 

[duncan mackie]

The 146 is the slope what's the 113?

I beleive it's the explicit 'reward for excellence factor' ie the larger your handicap the less of the course rating you benefit from. CONGU does it as an implicit element in the handicap adjustments that means that the lower the handicap the stronger (closer to average performance) it is.

 

[bobmac]

CONGU would argue that it would be the same handicap for both as the SSS differential would resolve differences.

I see their point but it's not just the physical difference in yardage that makes the difference.
Prizes at stake, card in the pocket, pressures of losing/gaining a shot....they all add up to a lot more than the difference between the SSS from the yellows to the whites.

 

[Smiffy]

I always play off the whites at Crowborough. Played in a stableford the other week, it was off the yellows. Felt really weird.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Why have different tees anyway?

Presumably it makes the comp seem a bit more "special" when it's off the rarely used longer tees. But by the sound of the thread many of you play mainly from the whites anyway. So each course should just go with either yellows or whites and stick at that....

 

[SGC001]

I see their point but it's not just the physical difference in yardage that makes the difference.
Prizes at stake, card in the pocket, pressures of losing/gaining a shot....they all add up to a lot more than the difference between the SSS from the yellows to the whites.

With the latter point (pressure of losing / gaining shots) wouldn't you just be transferring that to yellow pot play? I do think any self imposed pressure would play an element in expaining some of the difference between white and yellow play, I'm suprised most courses don't allow white pots for practice.

 

[SGC001]

ESA = Exceptional Score Adjustment - introduced into the US system first, and currently on trial with CONGU (except Scotland). Basically it's an automated approach to the function the Handicap Committee are already supposed to be doing in respect of fast improving players where the system simply can't keep up. You need to produce 4 under or better twice in close succession to trigger it, and it's not hugely reflective ie it doesn't zap you straight to the score you last achieved or anything like that.

Whether you agree with stablefords or not the crux of the system is actually designed to bring the various categories into line, rather than suggesting that stableford is better or worse. A higher handicaper playing a course that severely penalises their weak shot, that visits one that doesn't, could play 10 shots better than their handicap without real improvement; focusing on scores fundamentally appropriate to the handicap range resolves this. It has negligible impact on cat 1, occassional on cat 2 etc. It also has the convienent side effect that it brings handicaps better into line for matchplay.

SSS is a course rating based on the capabilities of a scr golfer, and how the layout and hazards would impact on his scoring in addition to just course length. Slope, as used in the US and other systems, considers the impact of these same factors against an 18 handicap player - on some courses it may have no impact, on others it could be significant! The course rating approach is fundamentally the same across both systems, although it gets represented and applied differently - which has the unfortunate side effect of a handicap only having a relative (to the course it's based on) meaning - wey used to have similar, if you are old enough to remember having to adjust handicaps when competing at other courses...

you could combine the best of both systems quite easily now that everything is computerised, and to a degree they are coming together all the time. however there are still some pretty large underlying differences in the primary use of handicaps and nature of the golf played between the users of the systems. I would like to see a consideration given, within CONGU UHS, to the impact of course elements on other than scr golfer ability - but the statistics suggest that so few golfers compete anywhere other than at their home club so the effort involved is unlikely to be expended!

Ah ok I thought there was a chance it might be exceptional scores, I didn't realised that was a trial.

I'm either too young to remember it or so old I've forgotten it (it's probably more likely I just wasn't playing when it was in). I sor t of imagined slope as been like sss, where harder courses on the slope sytem equated to courses with sss's above par on our system). I heard in the past you used to get chopped to what you shot or your PB.

I think it's a shame few people play away, as it broadens your experience. With the ladies system in thepast did they have home and away cards (something like 4 best away and 6 best home). I like the idea of away, though when the ladies went congu there seemed to be a lot of complaints as it seemed harder to maintain the handicaps they had achieved.

 

[duncan mackie]

I sor t of imagined slope as been like sss, where harder courses on the slope sytem equated to courses with sss's above par on our system).

well it is really.... I may confuse my terms a little, and the Eu system may not mirror all aspects of the US one, but it goes something like this.......

the slope index is a function of the course rating and the bogey rating where Cr=SSS but Br=SSS through the eyes of a bogey golfer (18 handicap) Each set of tees will have both ratings.

you then take the slope index and divide it by the weighting factor of 113 (which is strangely similar to the old 7/8ths we used to apply to get to playing handicap allowances when our handicaps were calculated closer to the US principle ).

you then take the exact handicap if you are based on that course, or you reverse engineer what the handicap would be at that course from the handicap and slope index of your home course, and multiply it by the slope index, then round it to create the playing handicap against par on that course for those tees.

I think :thup:

 

[SGC001]

I think I'm getting there.

The 113 is a weighting factor and that'll remain the same (didn't know if that'd alter earlier).

SSS is almost literally is standard scratch score, as in what a scratch golfer should shoot.

In other systems they use the bogey ss too, which is arguably more reflective of how the average handicap golfer would do. This I would assume would be more likely to show up in differences off tees as opposed to the scratch golfer where 10 yards or a hole is neither here nor there in changing their likely score from par to bogey or birdie.

I was under the impression it was easier to get lower in the States so am a little suprised we were 7/8ths. Ok that doesn't seem right: we used to have a 7/8ths handicap here for comps?

 

[moogie]

I am under the impression, after reading these posts, that some of u guys can play White tees, anytime, even in every day 'friendly' games......??
Where I play, and most courses in the area, the White Tees are for Club Comps ONLY
And if u tried to play from these, when there isnt a Comp on, it would be Frowned upon, and a BOLL***ING handed out
The Exception being, some of the Hotel / Resort courses, that let u choose your own tees

As soon as the Final Comp of the season ( my place ) has been played, the White Tees disappear for 6 months..........!!!

I personally, would Prefer to play more from the Whites, instead of just on Comp Days

 

[SGC001]

Moogie I think it varies from course to course depending on their situations. Courses, which drain well and have large teeing areas may allow play from white tees during the main season or handicap season. Others may be yellow tees for practice all year round or just in the summer and even mats in winter.

My old courses were yellow tees only during summer, no whites in winter or yellows just mats (small eeing area clay based). Like you I'd have prefferred whites at least in summer.

They wouldn't even let players representing the club have practice rounds off the whites (e.g foursomes). I suggested to the committee they allow a practice round for people representing the club in the week before the comp and consider allowing white pots for use with a donation to the captains charity for all members. Never heard anything back. I'm always confused with the issue with tess because you get to peg it up si a guarenteed a good lie and our tees would not be in the best shape after 1 good rainfall and a days play on them anyway so couldn't really get wrecked.

 

[duncan mackie]

I am under the impression, after reading these posts, that some of u guys can play White tees, anytime, even in every day 'friendly' games......??

As SGC001 says, it's different for different courses. huge generalisation but members clubs tend to be as yours whilst propriatory courses with clubs tend to allow the members to play whites (if they wish) whilst the daily society trade play yellows.

I play the tees I think appropriate to the conditions and my enjoyment, whih has been known to include the odd Red tee on occasion :mmm: and of course you get bizarre situations such as Seniors matches played of Yellow and Vets matches of Whites!

 

[Smiffy]

Where I play, and most courses in the area, the White Tees are for Club Comps ONLY
And if u tried to play from these, when there isnt a Comp on, it would be Frowned upon, and a BOLL***ING handed out

I'm lucky 'cos there is a bloody great hedge between our first tee and the pro shop window, so he can't see what tee you are going off.