Handicap, which tees?

[bobmac]

Just a thought...........
I hear a lot of people say I can play better than my handicap but I blow it in medals.

If they play, say 10 medals a year and 30-40 bounce games, should a golfer's handicap not be calculated from the bounce games, surely a more accurate measure of their playing ability ?

That would make it harder for some golfers to 'hide' their improvement and easier for the handicap system to keep up with newbies improving.
After all, which tees do you play most of your golf off?
Yellows I would imagine

 

[duncan mackie]

a good point but, in general, everyone is in the same situation and as long as performance is compared to the tees rather than par in discussion it seems less distorted.

having said that, there is no doubt that the psycological impact of coming forwards even 15yds on a hole is extremely significant to the average handicap golfer; much more so that the difference in SSS.

this is the one real difference between the other handicap systems and ours, the slope rating looks at the course for an 18 handicapper rather than the SSS rating which considers a scr golfers perception of the problems alone.

 

[upsidedown]

Spot on Bob.

Since moving to NZ was very skeptical of their handicapping system but now think it does give a truer reflection of your current playing status.
For those who don't know its based on my best 10 rounds from my last 20 , for any game and any tees calculated under the Slope index regime .

 

[Doc]

Play off the whites as soon as winter rules have gone.

Will not go anywhere near the yellows until next winter.

Our roll-ups are off the whites, no gimmes.

I think every game played off the whites with no gimmes, played to the rules of golf and with the card marked by another player could be a qualifier (at least at a bona fide members club)

Cheers

Steve...

 

[moogie]

Ive only been Playing golf 10years, 11th season just starting
One thing I never really understood, was why you play 3 rounds, for your handicap, off the Yellow tees, get allocated a Handicap, to then use on White Tees..........

How did this all start............??

 

[patricks148]

I play most of my golf in summer off the whites too . The only time off the yellow is when visiting another club that might not allow play from the medal for visitors and the odd midweek roll up that has a few older guys and they prefer the yellow as they are more competative from there as apssed to the yellow.

If we were to use the other system for handicapping then fair enough all cards to count, but don't we a have a competative handicap system that is for Competion?

 

[SGC001]

a good point but, in general, everyone is in the same situation and as long as performance is compared to the tees rather than par in discussion it seems less distorted.

having said that, there is no doubt that the psycological impact of coming forwards even 15yds on a hole is extremely significant to the average handicap golfer; much more so that the difference in SSS.

this is the one real difference between the other handicap systems and ours, the slope rating looks at the course for an 18 handicapper rather than the SSS rating which considers a scr golfers perception of the problems alone.

That's interesting I'd not heard that before, although I was playing when they came to do my old course and the guys were debating how the scatch players would play the hole.

It would certainly explain the scoring difference seen at my old course from yellows to white which as you indicate was significantly more than the sss difference and more like 3/4 handicap. The club used to ahve a small society run out of it and they always did 3/4 hndicap off the yellow tees home and away and they stillsocred well but it kept he scores to reasonable levels.

 

[BTatHome]

My friends initial cards were done of the whites ... Is it really common place to get your handicap off the yellows?

Not sure I like the system of best 10 etc. seems far too easier to add cards that were poor to get your handicap moving upwards.

 

[USER1999]

I play most of my golf off the white tees. But comps are from the stones, which makes it far more of a test. Since we never use the stones except in comps, you never get used to playing from them, and hence it is much harder. I only play about 6 comps a year, so I only get to play the full course 6 times. Not long enough to get comfortable with it really.
If my handicap was off whites, yes it would be lower, but I would be shafted off the stones in the comps. I'm not long enough off the tee.

 

[Curls]

Just a thought...........
I hear a lot of people say I can play better than my handicap but I blow it in medals.

which tees do you play most of your golf off?

To which I would say your handicap IS how you play in a Medal. It doesn't matter where you play most of your social golf, a handicap (as far as I understand it) is a measure of your competition performance from competition tees on comp day. In other countries with sliding rule etc then yeah, it's more like how you play an average round of golf, but that's not the system we have in place here and right or wrong that's what everyone is playing so we're all on the same page. I almost always play "better than my handicap" off the yellows in a friendly knock about, but wouldn't put too much stock in it as it's entirely different to doing it on Medal Sunday.

 

[Region3]

Just a thought...........
I hear a lot of people say I can play better than my handicap but I blow it in medals.

If they play, say 10 medals a year and 30-40 bounce games, should a golfer's handicap not be calculated from the bounce games, surely a more accurate measure of their playing ability ?

That would make it harder for some golfers to 'hide' their improvement and easier for the handicap system to keep up with newbies improving.
After all, which tees do you play most of your golf off?
Yellows I would imagine

As long as whichever tees you're using have their own (accurate) SSS I'd be happy to be adjusted in bounce games.

Our yellows are 2 shots easier than the whites so I consider I have to shoot +5 to play to handicap.
No-one I play with ever takes that into account. They'll finish and say they 'played to handicap' but actually they didn't, they were 2 shots over it.

Still, if it makes them feel better about their game I'll leave them to it.

 

[StrangelyBrown]

As long as whichever tees you're using have their own (accurate) SSS I'd be happy to be adjusted in bounce games.

Agree 100%.

Hand in a card for every round that you play then there can be no accusations of banditry.

 

[Oddsocks]

Interesting thread, In my bounce games with buddies at away course we always play off the yellows, but this is because the HC varies from 12-36, some of the high boys are very inconsistent and playing from teh whiles would make some of the rounds very long.

during my 2 years as a member at my place, they have only taken the whites in for 12 weeks max, our weekly roll up is off the whites, al our comps are off the whites, and ive go to say when i do actually play it off the yellows although shorter i seem to score worse, because i dont find myself playing shots im used to. approaches are all out of sync.

im not sure there is a answer, but id love to see uk courses tie in with the slope system

 

[duncan mackie]

That's interesting I'd not heard that before, although I was playing when they came to do my old course and the guys were debating how the scatch players would play the hole.

It would certainly explain the scoring difference seen at my old course from yellows to white which as you indicate was significantly more than the sss difference and more like 3/4 handicap. The club used to ahve a small society run out of it and they always did 3/4 hndicap off the yellow tees home and away and they stillsocred well but it kept he scores to reasonable levels.

putting the society to one side for a moment - because they generally use handicapping to deliver an equitable distribution of prizes over time! - it's not difficult to construct a hole where the difference between the whites and the yellows is a full shot if you think about it.

examples would be tee shots which leave a second with carry over a hazard to the green....at, say, 170Y/190 yds/W the Scr guy is simply going to face an extra club or maybe 2 - but then again he may decide to hit a driver rather than his normal 3 wood or rescue off the tee! the average handicap player may have some confidence in the 170 carry but would prefer it less, at 190 he know he could get there, but also that he won't! So he will try to hit it further off the tee, and of course that's going to be a problem....all told the hole moves from 'maybe four' to 'five's good' - all for 15 yds off the tee. An average of 15-20yds per hole is only likely to move the SSS1, whilst a slope assesment for an 18 handicap might have the difference closer to 2.5.

the issue of which scores and averages is a bit of a red herring; generally you get the similar results when processing the same scores through the various systems, although the (current) explicit 13% reward for excellence factor in the US system is reflected by a slightly lower implicit factor in CONGU, and the US system will move a player's handicap around more on even 'normal distibution' scores. Personally I see this as a weakness because a mature player's underlying ability doesn't change that fast and, simply having a few bad scores shouldn't mean a 9 becomes a 14 6 weeks later, only to become a 9 again in another 6 weeks. OTOH I see the single focus on course rating for Scr capability alone to be the weakness of CONGU.

It's interesting that in all the other ways the systems are increasingly coming together - stableford adjustments are in both and now CONGU is looking to introduce ESAs in the same way as the US brought in (although the SGU have opted out of the 'trial').

It is an interesting subject, and one with many fundamental misunderstandings too!

 

[Region3]

it's not difficult to construct a hole where the difference between the whites and the yellows is a full shot if you think about it.

We have 2 of them.

Par 4 2nd. Ditch 30yds short of the green. Yellow tees = 400yds, white tees = 450yds.

Par 5 9th. Ditch (and huge trees) 90yds short of the green. Yellow tees approx 490, most weeks I'm going for the green in 2. White tees approx 540, very rarely go for it as anything not perfect will add 2 shots to your score.

 

[TriggerTech]

Interesting post Bob

Played a medal on Sunday off the whites and scored 34 points SSS 68 so at least 5 off a 0.4

Been playing regularly off the Yellows (all in all 300 yrd difference on the card – a 3 wood for most of you ;-) ) and have been throwing in 39 – 46 points – however due to 1 Sford comp a month, the comp off the whites suddenly becomes a big deal and added pressure is felt.

As a result me and my regular playing

 

[smange]

The way our place is going, catering to the masses(was going to say older members but decided against it) and playing most comps off the yellows you would do well to play enough comps off the whites to get and maintain your handicap.

Our white blocks arent out for most weeks of the year so you cant even play a bounce game from them, which I would rather do and try to do anytime im playing another course

 

[bobmac]

I'm actually quite surprised how often some people play off their white tees.
In the past, I've only ever used them for offical comps.
If you play off the whites most of the time then of course, your handicap should be calculated from them

Been playing regularly off the Yellows (all in all 300 yrd difference on the card – a 3 wood for most of you ;-) ) and have been throwing in 39 – 46 points – however due to 1 Sford comp a month, the comp off the whites suddenly becomes a big deal and added pressure is felt.

This was my point. Surely, if you play most of your golf from the yellows, that's where you should be handicapped from. After all, not everyone wants to play in official club comps.

 

[chrisd]

As soon as the whites are out we always play off them, except this Sunday as I have the winter league final to play which is a designated yellow tee comp. We can play off the whites for all golf whether comps, practice or whatever.

 

[SGC001]

Are you suggesting 2 handicaps Bobmac? One for social golf and one for competitions. Wouldn't that get a bit clumsy?

Why not use an online handicap and stat tracker for your yellow pots play and play off that?

Anybody do online (or your own) score trackers and seperate their yellow and white pot play? It'd be an intersting experiment to see how reflective sss of yellow and white pots are.


duncan mackie what is an esa? I'm not a fan of spa's just because I don't really agree with stableford's. I think you should count your shots and se what you've scored, if you want social golf play a betterball not a stab.


How does slope rating relate to sss? Can they not work together or is it one and nto the other?