Handicap Secs - Pre-Reg Supp Card pre and post WHS

[Old Skier]

So, if I cannot refuse a score with no way of checking it using a scorecard, I suspect I cannot refuse a score that was not pre-registered?

I think these are two completely different matters.

The rules for electronic entry being acceptable have changed to allow it, the rule insisting preregistration have not as far as I can see.

 

[Swango1980]

I think these are two completely different matters.

The rules for electronic entry being acceptable have changed to allow it, the rule insisting preregistration have not as far as I can see.

Well, if it is acceptable to simply delete a score if it wasn't pre-registered, then that solves my problem.

I was just concerned that we shouldn't do that. I'd also be worried if, say I was away for a few weeks, and a player entered many scores, resulting in a significantly different handicap, and played in comps. Then, I come along, delete those supplementary scores that were not pre registered, then it is shown the players handicap changes significantly, and different to what he was playing with in comps. Seems a bit of a minefield

 

[Old Skier]

Well, if it is acceptable to simply delete a score if it wasn't pre-registered, then that solves my problem.

I was just concerned that we shouldn't do that. I'd also be worried if, say I was away for a few weeks, and a player entered many scores, resulting in a significantly different handicap, and played in comps. Then, I come along, delete those supplementary scores that were not pre registered, then it is shown the players handicap changes significantly, and different to what he was playing with in comps. Seems a bit of a minefield

Your right, it is a minefield and I suspect, like me your at a proprietary club and an unpaid volunteer . You need a good HC committee around you who understand and can assist when people are away. My committee is Me then a member from the three main sections with the junior organisers input when needed.

 

[Swango1980]

Your right, it is a minefield and I suspect, like me your at a proprietary club and an unpaid volunteer . You need a good HC committee around you who understand and can assist when people are away. My committee is Me then a member from the three main sections with the junior organisers input when needed.

Sounds almost exactly like my club. And, with ridiculously cheap membership, members are very much casual golfers who like to play a bit if nothing better on. Not like an expensive club, where members are very much invested in golf and more likely to understand the ins and outs, or willing to find out. So, spoon feeding isn't even good enough for some members, so I envisage some headaches when some of them start playing with a WHS app and putting in their scores, then me having to chase to see what is going on.

It would be a great time to resign

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Providing it has been activated by admin go to

Todays Golf
Sign In
Supplementary Score

going by your screen shot there’s a possibility that it hasn’t been activated.

Sign In doesn’t stop the need to register.

Sorry for being dim - but if you sign in why doesn't that count as registration? Won't the system flag a score as outstanding if it isn't subsequently entered?

 

[ger147]

Sorry for being dim - but if you sign in why doesn't that count as registration? Won't the system flag a score as outstanding if it isn't subsequently entered?

You could sign in after your round and then enter a score. It doesn't satisfy the requirement that you must declare in advance your intention to submit a supplementary score.

 

[doublebogey7]

Providing it has been activated by admin go to

Todays Golf
Sign In
Supplementary Score

going by your screen shot there’s a possibility that it hasn’t been activated.

Sign In doesn’t stop the need to register.

You could sign in after your round and then enter a score. It doesn't satisfy the requirement that you must declare in advance your intention to submit a supplementary score.

The time of signing in is recorded in Club V1, as is the time of posting the score. Way more reliable than a book to sign in.

 

[Old Skier]

The time of signing in is recorded in Club V1, as is the time of posting the score. Way more reliable than a book to sign in.

Not noticed this, where does it record posting time

 

[jim8flog]

Just to be clear. When WHS comes into play, players MUST be able to input their scores themselves. This is because they will be used in PPE calculation at midnight, and handicap updated accordingly.

I believe Apps are/have been developed to facilitate this.

Therefore, their handicaps WILL be updated the following day, with no input from handicap secretary.

That was one of my main points. What will handicap secs do if they subsequently find out the round was not pre registered?

The book says
(iv) The Handicap Committee should ensure a submitted score is posted to a
player’s scoring record as soon as possible.

Although I have only had a quick skim I do not remember anything about players inputting their own scores being a requirement

The book says

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.
Such pre-registration must be made:
l Before the player starts the round, and
l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

The time of signing in is recorded in Club V1, as is the time of posting the score. Way more reliable than a book to sign in.

Hmm. What says you don’t go out and play a round and once finished you’re happy with your round, sign in, and then a minute later add your score? So just doing everything retrospectively. Or am I reading/understanding this completely wrong?

 

[Swango1980]

The book says
(iv) The Handicap Committee should ensure a submitted score is posted to a
player’s scoring record as soon as possible.

Although I have only had a quick skim I do not remember anything about players inputting their own scores being a requirement

The book says

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score in general play for handicap purposes.
Such pre-registration must be made:
l Before the player starts the round, and
l According to the requirements or conditions established by the Handicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.

Hi Jim, yes that is true. So, (iv) backs up my point, that under WHS the way a player's score can be submitted ASAP is by them entering their own score directly. Therefore, as handicap secretary, I have no way of knowing whether this score is valid or has been pre-registered until I finally get round to checking what scores have been entered and whether there is any record of them being pre-registered.

So, let us say next year, a player plays on Sunday and puts their score into an App afterwards. They play Monday and Tuesday and do the same, and handicap from Monday morning changes from 15 to 17 by Wednesday (they had poor rounds, and wiped out 3 very good rounds they had 18-20 rounds ago). Play in a seniors comp on Wednesday, win on countback.

I then do my checks as handicap secretary on Thursday, come across these scores that have been entered, and find no evidence that the rounds were pre-registered. What do I do:

• Delete the Scores so the handicap goes back to 15? If I do, and player is Playing a match play match on Friday morning, I'll need to hope they get my e-mail telling them, otherwise they may play off wrong handicap, as they won't expect any changes having not played on Thursday. Also, if I delete scores, do we just have to accept they won the Wednesday competition off too high a handicap?
• Accept the scores, but give the player a slap on the wrist and warn them that if they do it again, they'd be disciplined based on whatever club policy we decide to adopts (like a competition ban or something?)

Note, I could use the same example above by have the player get a lower rather than higher handicap. Obviously they'd not win the comp, but probably more common as some Players like to submit a good score after shooting it, but don't want to pre-register in case they have a bad round. Although, maybe getting that lower handicap helps them to qualify for a specific event, which would make it more controversial

 

[doublebogey7]

Not noticed this, where does it record posting time

Under date signed in, on the Supplementary Score Approve/Reject Page

 

[doublebogey7]

Hmm. What says you don’t go out and play a round and once finished you’re happy with your round, sign in, and then a minute later add your score? So just doing everything retrospectively. Or am I reading/understanding this completely wrong?

As I said in my original post the time score entry is also recorded. I'm anyone determined enough could just delay when they enter the score, but the manual system also has that floor.

 

[doublebogey7]

Hi Jim, yes that is true. So, (iv) backs up my point, that under WHS the way a player's score can be submitted ASAP is by them entering their own score directly. Therefore, as handicap secretary, I have no way of knowing whether this score is valid or has been pre-registered until I finally get round to checking what scores have been entered and whether there is any record of them being pre-registered.

So, let us say next year, a player plays on Sunday and puts their score into an App afterwards. They play Monday and Tuesday and do the same, and handicap from Monday morning changes from 15 to 17 by Wednesday (they had poor rounds, and wiped out 3 very good rounds they had 18-20 rounds ago). Play in a seniors comp on Wednesday, win on countback.

I then do my checks as handicap secretary on Thursday, come across these scores that have been entered, and find no evidence that the rounds were pre-registered. What do I do:

• Delete the Scores so the handicap goes back to 15? If I do, and player is Playing a match play match on Friday morning, I'll need to hope they get my e-mail telling them, otherwise they may play off wrong handicap, as they won't expect any changes having not played on Thursday. Also, if I delete scores, do we just have to accept they won the Wednesday competition off too high a handicap?
• Accept the scores, but give the player a slap on the wrist and warn them that if they do it again, they'd be disciplined based on whatever club policy we decide to adopts (like a competition ban or something?)

Note, I could use the same example above by have the player get a lower rather than higher handicap. Obviously they'd not win the comp, but probably more common as some Players like to submit a good score after shooting it, but don't want to pre-register in case they have a bad round. Although, maybe getting that lower handicap helps them to qualify for a specific event, which would make it more controversial

If you use the technology correcting then you must have signed in before posting a score. Simply make clear any penalty for abusing this, then I would expect non-compliance to be minimal. The penalty would need to include forfeiture of any prize monies earned as a result of abuse. I would hope that a report of supplimentary scores posted will be available, so such scores can be checked regularly for compliance.

 

[Swango1980]

If you use the technology correcting then you must have signed in before posting a score. Simply make clear any penalty for abusing this, then I would expect non-compliance to be minimal. The penalty would need to include forfeiture of any prize monies earned as a result of abuse. I would hope that a report of supplimentary scores posted will be available, so such scores can be checked regularly for compliance.

So, that may be the answer, which I'd welcome other Committee viewpoints to ensure I don't go rogue:

Under Current System:
Round not pre-registered, do not accept the score. Final decision

Under WHS:
Round not pre-registered, do not delete the score. However, issue a warning and if happens again, discipline player.

If that is the case, what sort of discipline are we talking about? For example, banning a player from 3 competitions might be a big penalty for a regular competition player, but may be a very light penalty to someone who plays about 3 comps a year. Also, I can imagine disciplinary actions on players work quite well at expensive members clubs, as golfers invest more money, and probably more time in golf. At my club, membership is dirt cheap and so golf is often secondary in members lives and they have bigger priorities. I can imagine banning a player from 3 comps would have the reaction of "whatever, I'll just knock it round with my mates when I get a bit of time"

So, simply deleting their score would actually be the easiest thing to do for consistency (like not accepting under current system). But, maybe that means myself, or the comp sec, needs to check all potential supplementary score inputs for players in a competition are checked before closing the comp, so a player's handicap can be verified and a prize winner is not potentially playing off the wrong handicap.

 

[ger147]

The time of signing in is recorded in Club V1, as is the time of posting the score. Way more reliable than a book to sign in.

It's not more reliable than a book as to sign the book, assuming it's in the pro shop, there is independent corroboration that you were actaully there and went out to play a round.

With the HDID system, you could sign in, wait a few hours then enter your score without leaving the house.

Might sound like an extreme example but at our place, it's starting to become an issue with comp rounds i.e. people not signing in till afterwards and examples of some players not signing in to save themselves the £3 comp fee and/or 0.1 back if they've had a crap round.

 

[Swango1980]

It's not more reliable than a book as to sign the book, assuming it's in the pro shop, there is independent corroboration that you were actaully there and went out to play a round.

With the HDID system, you could sign in, wait a few hours then enter your score without leaving the house.

Might sound like an extreme example but at our place, it's starting to become an issue with comp rounds i.e. people not signing in till afterwards and examples of some players not signing in to save themselves the £3 comp fee and/or 0.1 back if they've had a crap round.

I agree with your point, it worries me that technology will allow players to do something extreme like that. There will probably be ways to try and catch them out, but it involves procedures Committees previously didn't need to be concerned about.

Signing in at club is not really a good option at our place either. We have no pro, staff who know nothing about golf (they don't even know what a temporary green is when asked) and an owner who is not a golfer, so doesn't really appreciate the admin side of things when trying to run a Golf Committee. So, a sign in book is of little value, as it would either go missing or players would finish round, sign in and enter score without any questioning from staff. Automatic registration at least gives time stamps, but as you say, I'm unsure how you stop a player from simply sitting on their backside at home and just make scores up, signing in a few hours before. It could take balls or stupidity on their part, but it would require me to actually know that was happening, and unless I was atr the club at that time and knew the player, how would I ever know it was a fake round.

 

[jim8flog]

Hi Jim, yes that is true. So, (iv) backs up my point, that under WHS the way a player's score can be submitted ASAP is by them entering their own score directly. Therefore, as handicap secretary, I have no way of knowing whether this score is valid or has been pre-registered until I finally get round to checking what scores have been entered and whether there is any record of them being pre-registered.

So, let us say next year, a player plays on Sunday and puts their score into an App afterwards. They play Monday and Tuesday and do the same, and handicap from Monday morning changes from 15 to 17 by Wednesday (they had poor rounds, and wiped out 3 very good rounds they had 18-20 rounds ago). Play in a seniors comp on Wednesday, win on countback.

I then do my checks as handicap secretary on Thursday, come across these scores that have been entered, and find no evidence that the rounds were pre-registered. What do I do:

• Delete the Scores so the handicap goes back to 15? If I do, and player is Playing a match play match on Friday morning, I'll need to hope they get my e-mail telling them, otherwise they may play off wrong handicap, as they won't expect any changes having not played on Thursday. Also, if I delete scores, do we just have to accept they won the Wednesday competition off too high a handicap?
• Accept the scores, but give the player a slap on the wrist and warn them that if they do it again, they'd be disciplined based on whatever club policy we decide to adopts (like a competition ban or something?)

Note, I could use the same example above by have the player get a lower rather than higher handicap. Obviously they'd not win the comp, but probably more common as some Players like to submit a good score after shooting it, but don't want to pre-register in case they have a bad round. Although, maybe getting that lower handicap helps them to qualify for a specific event, which would make it more controversial

In one respect I cannot help you only quote what is in the book - we have IG

Within IG there is no facility for a player to enter their own Supplementary Scores on to their handicap record as far as I am aware and if there is we have not implemented it . They can enter the scores via the IG app but like scorecards the scores have to be verified/processed by an appropriate person first.

As already said the IG app time codes pre-registration such that it cannot be done after a players booked tee time. You can only use the app within WiFi range of the office.

If you have players not pre-registering when the WHS then you must delete the score.
When it comes to the comp it could simply be reopened and the players handicap altered accordingly and closed to produce a new result.

The need to register your intention to play a Supplementary Score round has been in for donkey's years and if a player is willing to ignore the rules..............

 

[Swango1980]

In one respect I cannot help you only quote what is in the book - we have IG

Within IG there is no facility for a player to enter their own Supplementary Scores on to their handicap record as far as I am aware and if there is we have not implemented it . They can enter the scores via the IG app but like scorecards the scores have to be verified/processed by an appropriate person first.

As already said the IG app time codes pre-registration such that it cannot be done after a players booked tee time. You can only use the app within WiFi range of the office.

If you have players not pre-registering when the WHS then you must delete the score.
When it comes to the comp it could simply be reopened and the players handicap altered accordingly and closed to produce a new result.

The need to register your intention to play a Supplementary Score round has been in for donkey's years and if a player is willing to ignore the rules..............

Thanks

In the first bold sentence above, that effectively answers my question, except I am unsure England Golf would recommend this (although, if they include it in the WHS manual, problem solved)

In the second bold sentence above, if the new result changes the winners after competition closed first time, will this have a big issue? I suspect not, if terms of competition state competition closed after trophy has been awarded (which could be months away at prize giving), given the wording of 5A (7) in Rules of Golf

 

[doublebogey7]

It's not more reliable than a book as to sign the book, assuming it's in the pro shop, there is independent corroboration that you were actaully there and went out to play a round.

With the HDID system, you could sign in, wait a few hours then enter your score without leaving the house.

Might sound like an extreme example but at our place, it's starting to become an issue with comp rounds i.e. people not signing in till afterwards and examples of some players not signing in to save themselves the £3 comp fee and/or 0.1 back if they've had a crap round.

You credit your pro shop staff with more nowse than I would ours. I am somewhat confused though how this could happen in competitions surely you have a record of start times in competitions and the software records both sign in and score posted, so you should easily be able to nip that in the bud. You might also want to warn your members that you would seek legal proceedings against anyone committing fraud in this way.