Handicap Secs - Pre-Reg Supp Card pre and post WHS

[Swango1980]

Hello

I'm getting a higher volume of Supplementary Cards at the moment than normal. Due to not being able to touch anything (Covid), pre-registration is done by contacting me directly (usually by e-mail). Annoyingly, I still get cards sent to me that were never pre-registered. My question is to handicap secs, are:

1. Under current system, will you automatically discount these scores if pre-registration has not occurred?
2. Under WHS, what will you do, bearing in mind the Player will already have entered the score on the system probably days before, and therefore already updated their handicap record. I don't think you can delete this score, and I don't believe England Golf wish these scores to be deleted. If that is the case, will this require chasing players, reminding them of their responsibilities, and disciplining them if they continue to put in scores without pre-registration?

In terms of the current system, although it highlights clearly pre-registration is required, Paragraph 21.6 in CONGU manual in bold), I can't seem to find if it indicates anywhere what happens when a player does not do this, and therefore should the card automatically be discarded, or is this for the discretion of the Committee? I don't want to run an Iron Fist in the slightest, especially before we move to WHS, but the headache is I want to ensure consistency and clarity, otherwise you open the door to being accused of favouritism if you treat people differently for whatever reason.

Cheers

 

[Old Skier]

Not sure what system you are on but in V1 all supplementary cards are held for clearing and don’t go automatically onto the record and would be surprised if other systems don’t work the same way

ALL sups must be pre registered, if they haven’t the should not be counted.

It shouldn’t be seen as an Iron Fist approach rather a following of the club and congus requirements. Experience shows that the minute you drop a rule/policy it comes back to bite you and some barsteward will use it against you.

Proceed with caution.

 

[Swango1980]

Not sure what system you are on but in V1 all supplementary cards are held for clearing and don’t go automatically onto the record and would be surprised if other systems don’t work the same way

ALL sups must be pre registered, if they haven’t the should not be counted.

It shouldn’t be seen as an Iron Fist approach rather a following of the club and congus requirements. Experience shows that the minute you drop a rule/policy it comes back to bite you and some barsteward will use it against you.

Proceed with caution.

Cheers, yes we are on Club V1, and yes, any score that goes on a players record must be authorised by me (or if in comp by comp sec). But, in terms of the current system, does the CONGU manual specifically say these scores must be discarded if not pre-registered?

Once WHS comes into play, that luxury will no longer be available to handicap secs, because players can enter their own scores into system long before the handicap sec even realises, and their handicap record updated the day after they enter the score. So, if a handicap secretary noticed this several days later, I don't think England Golf want them to simply delete this score (for one thing, the player may not immediately realise, and then play off the wrong handicap (or get confused when they check a computer / app after this is done, if they don't get the memo)

 

[Old Skier]

Cheers, yes we are on Club V1, and yes, any score that goes on a players record must be authorised by me (or if in comp by comp sec). But, in terms of the current system, does the CONGU manual specifically say these scores must be discarded if not pre-registered?

Once WHS comes into play, that luxury will no longer be available to handicap secs, because players can enter their own scores into system long before the handicap sec even realises, and their handicap record updated the day after they enter the score. So, if a handicap secretary noticed this several days later, I don't think England Golf want them to simply delete this score (for one thing, the player may not immediately realise, and then play off the wrong handicap (or get confused when they check a computer / app after this is done, if they don't get the memo)

My understanding under the WHS cards done at other courses still must be declared prior to play with the intention using the card for handicap purposes.

Currently scores must be registered Section 4 - 21 makes this very clear. When V1 released the ability for individuals to input sup scores Section 4-21 was specifically mentioned.

 

[Swango1980]

My understanding under the WHS cards done at other courses still must be declared prior to play with the intention using the card for handicap purposes.

Currently scores must be registered Section 4 - 21 makes this very clear. When V1 released the ability for individuals to input sup scores Section 4-21 was specifically mentioned.

Yes, they will have to still be pre-registered under WHS

The Conundrum is that, if they are not, the player can still put their score in as they wish (unless the system automatically stops them somehow). So, there is no doubt that will happen, and the question is, what can the handicap secretary do about it?

Just out of interest, what does Section 4 - 21 refer to (I can't seem to find it in CONGU Manual). What I am more concerned with, if cards are not pre-registered, is there a definitive action plan all committees must obey (such as rip up the card), or is it at the discretion of the Committee (i.e. if they feel there has been no intentional handicap manipulation, they may still accept the score?).

Basically, our previous handicap secretary never provided information to members about how supplementary cards should be submitted, and would accept all, even if it was obvious the player only decided to submit after having a good round. That being said, supplementary cards were not overly common. If the guidelines allowed me to automatically ignore any card that was not pre-submitted, then I'd do that. My reluctance to automatically do that is as follows:

1. I don't want to be obstructive to members who innocently forget or don't realise about pre-registration, and want to hand in scores, especially to help with their WHS calculation in November
2. I don't want to outline a strict policy now that these scores will be ignored, only to have no control over it once WHS comes into effect, and members are putting in their own scores without my knowledge.

 

[Old Skier]

Yes, they will have to still be pre-registered under WHS

The Conundrum is that, if they are not, the player can still put their score in as they wish (unless the system automatically stops them somehow). So, there is no doubt that will happen, and the question is, what can the handicap secretary do about it?

Just out of interest, what does Section 4 - 21 refer to (I can't seem to find it in CONGU Manual). What I am more concerned with, if cards are not pre-registered, is there a definitive action plan all committees must obey (such as rip up the card), or is it at the discretion of the Committee (i.e. if they feel there has been no intentional handicap manipulation, they may still accept the score?).

Basically, our previous handicap secretary never provided information to members about how supplementary cards should be submitted, and would accept all, even if it was obvious the player only decided to submit after having a good round. That being said, supplementary cards were not overly common. If the guidelines allowed me to automatically ignore any card that was not pre-submitted, then I'd do that. My reluctance to automatically do that is as follows:

1. I don't want to be obstructive to members who innocently forget or don't realise about pre-registration, and want to hand in scores, especially to help with their WHS calculation in November
2. I don't want to outline a strict policy now that these scores will be ignored, only to have no control over it once WHS comes into effect, and members are putting in their own scores without my knowledge.

I may not have been clear. With supplementary scores, there is no input into the record before the relevant administrators accept the score and hopefully they will check that it has been registered, they should also check that a registered cards have been submitted.

When it comes to cards from away courses it will be input by the visiting club is my understanding therefore they will know if the player registered or not.

Its unfortunate that you appear to have picked up from someone not understanding or willing to follow the laid down procedures for affiliated clubs.

Look at Section 4 para 21 in the handbook for further clarification.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Hello

I'm getting a higher volume of Supplementary Cards at the moment than normal. Due to not being able to touch anything (Covid), pre-registration is done by contacting me directly (usually by e-mail). Annoyingly, I still get cards sent to me that were never pre-registered. My question is to handicap secs, are:

1. Under current system, will you automatically discount these scores if pre-registration has not occurred?
2. Under WHS, what will you do, bearing in mind the Player will already have entered the score on the system probably days before, and therefore already updated their handicap record. I don't think you can delete this score, and I don't believe England Golf wish these scores to be deleted. If that is the case, will this require chasing players, reminding them of their responsibilities, and disciplining them if they continue to put in scores without pre-registration?

In terms of the current system, although it highlights clearly pre-registration is required, Paragraph 21.6 in CONGU manual in bold), I can't seem to find if it indicates anywhere what happens when a player does not do this, and therefore should the card automatically be discarded, or is this for the discretion of the Committee? I don't want to run an Iron Fist in the slightest, especially before we move to WHS, but the headache is I want to ensure consistency and clarity, otherwise you open the door to being accused of favouritism if you treat people differently for whatever reason.

Cheers

We are effectively in manual mode at present due to the PSI terminals being out of commission due to Covid-19 restrictions in our club. We use Club2000 V1 so the HowDidIDo function for supplementary cards has yet to be delivered. Since taking over as Handicap Sec. I have written and published the process for supplementary cards and we use a list in the shop for pre-registration or an email to an ID we have set up specifically. The cards are returned via the shop and a suitable pause or photographed and attached to an email.

In these times I have tried to be reasonable and where a problem has arisen gone back to the player to check why it wasn't registered and ensure they understand it won't be accepted in future. So far so good but it remains a bit of a struggle to get the message out.

 

[Old Skier]

We are effectively in manual mode at present due to the PSI terminals being out of commission due to Covid-19 restrictions in our club. We use Club2000 V1 so the HowDidIDo function for supplementary cards has yet to be delivered. Since taking over as Handicap Sec. I have written and published the process for supplementary cards and we use a list in the shop for pre-registration or an email to an ID we have set up specifically. The cards are returned via the shop and a suitable pause or photographed and attached to an email.

In these times I have tried to be reasonable and where a problem has arisen gone back to the player to check why it wasn't registered and ensure they understand it won't be accepted in future. So far so good but it remains a bit of a struggle to get the message out.

You might not yet wish to go down this route, but sups can now be entered via the HDID app, hope your transfer goes well.

 

[jim8flog]

Q1 It is a requirement now and with the WHS that rounds must be preregistered so if that has not been done do not accept them.

Q2 We use a mix of an APP via Intelliegent Golf and signing the book. In both circumstances the card has to be returned and scores have to processed by an appropriate person before they go a player's handicap record.

We have a clearly defined process for submitting supplementary cards both in the registration book (which has tear out sheets so a player cannot sign the next day) and on our handicaps notice board.

The IG app uses a time code so a player cannot enter after their booked tee time.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

Yes, they will have to still be pre-registered under WHS

The Conundrum is that, if they are not, the player can still put their score in as they wish (unless the system automatically stops them somehow). So, there is no doubt that will happen, and the question is, what can the handicap secretary do about it?

Just out of interest, what does Section 4 - 21 refer to (I can't seem to find it in CONGU Manual). What I am more concerned with, if cards are not pre-registered, is there a definitive action plan all committees must obey (such as rip up the card), or is it at the discretion of the Committee (i.e. if they feel there has been no intentional handicap manipulation, they may still accept the score?).

Basically, our previous handicap secretary never provided information to members about how supplementary cards should be submitted, and would accept all, even if it was obvious the player only decided to submit after having a good round. That being said, supplementary cards were not overly common. If the guidelines allowed me to automatically ignore any card that was not pre-submitted, then I'd do that. My reluctance to automatically do that is as follows:

1. I don't want to be obstructive to members who innocently forget or don't realise about pre-registration, and want to hand in scores, especially to help with their WHS calculation in November
2. I don't want to outline a strict policy now that these scores will be ignored, only to have no control over it once WHS comes into effect, and members are putting in their own scores without my knowledge.

Where would they be able to add the score into the system? This is what I get on my V1 app currently as there’s no competition going on, so wouldn’t be able to add a supplementary.

 

[Old Skier]

Where would they be able to add the score into the system? This is what I get on my V1 app currently as there’s no competition going on, so wouldn’t be able to add a supplementary.

Providing it has been activated by admin go to

Todays Golf
Sign In
Supplementary Score

going by your screen shot there’s a possibility that it hasn’t been activated.

Sign In doesn’t stop the need to register.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

You might not yet wish to go down this route, but sups can now be entered via the HDID app, hope your transfer goes well.

Thanks - it was a difficult birth but Committee and software now doing well!

I have enabled the functionality so will test it before implementing fully.

PS How do you get notified of new functionality being released?

 

[Old Skier]

Thanks - it was a difficult birth but Committee and software now doing well!

I have enabled the functionality so will test it before implementing fully.

PS How do you get notified of new functionality being released?

Usually as a pops up when sign on and on the latest news on the My Home page. If you need to ask anything the live chat is the fastest way if it’s a quick and simple issue.

 

[Deleted member 25172]

Providing it has been activated by admin go to

Todays Golf
Sign In
Supplementary Score

going by your screen shot there’s a possibility that it hasn’t been activated.

Sign In doesn’t stop the need to register.

Ok. I didn’t know that was a function as Swango kept referring to it and nothing that could be shown on the app. I don’t think that anyone of us don’t understand that you should/must still register the round beforehand.

 

[Swango1980]

Just to be clear. When WHS comes into play, players MUST be able to input their scores themselves. This is because they will be used in PPE calculation at midnight, and handicap updated accordingly.

I believe Apps are/have been developed to facilitate this.

Therefore, their handicaps WILL be updated the following day, with no input from handicap secretary.

That was one of my main points. What will handicap secs do if they subsequently find out the round was not pre registered?

 

[Old Skier]

Just to be clear. When WHS comes into play, players MUST be able to input their scores themselves. This is because they will be used in PPE calculation at midnight, and handicap updated accordingly.

I believe Apps are/have been developed to facilitate this.

Therefore, their handicaps WILL be updated the following day, with no input from handicap secretary.

That was one of my main points. What will handicap secs do if they subsequently find out the round was not pre registered?

That was not how it was explained at our seminar, if you are correct, I see the problem

going to spend a while going through this

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/England-Golf-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf

to see if it sheds some light on the matter. If you beat me to it would be grateful of a heads up - only 121 pages to go.

 

[Swango1980]

That was not how it was explained at our seminar, if you are correct, I see the problem

going to spend a while going through this

https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/England-Golf-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf

to see if it sheds some light on the matter. If you beat me to it would be grateful of a heads up - only 121 pages to go.

I had some dialogue with England Golf on a related matter, but not the same. Basically, my question was "what if I find out, under WHS, a player has entered a score for handicap using an app, I find out days later this has been done, but there is no trace of a scorecard to check. Can I delete the score, if they binned the card and there is no evidence of it? The answer was "No. You cannot refuse a score which is being returned for handicap".

So, if I cannot refuse a score with no way of checking it using a scorecard, I suspect I cannot refuse a score that was not pre-registered?

 

[Old Skier]

Just to be clear. When WHS comes into play, players MUST be able to input their scores themselves. This is because they will be used in PPE calculation at midnight, and handicap updated accordingly.

I believe Apps are/have been developed to facilitate this.

Therefore, their handicaps WILL be updated the following day, with no input from handicap secretary.

That was one of my main points. What will handicap secs do if they subsequently find out the round was not pre registered?

Just done a quick look and found the following under WHS rules

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score
in general play for handicap purposes. Such pre-registration must be made:
l Before theplayerstartstheround,and
l AccordingtotherequirementsorconditionsestablishedbytheHandicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.
The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

Page 29

 

[Old Skier]

I think the

Player is required

and

The Committee may

will rely on the Player being informed and following the WHS Handicap rules

 

[Swango1980]

Just done a quick look and found the following under WHS rules

(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play.
A player is required to pre-register their intent to submit an acceptable score
in general play for handicap purposes. Such pre-registration must be made:
l Before theplayerstartstheround,and
l AccordingtotherequirementsorconditionsestablishedbytheHandicap
Committee and/or the Authorized Association.
The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.

Page 29

Yes, I appreciate that they must pre-register. However, I am not convinced that if they do not, you are encouraged to delete their score. See my previous point, players can effectively NOT hand in a card, but the score should not be refused.

I suspect England Golf will encourage players to be penalised with disciplinary procedures for these breaches, rather than simply deleting a score, that may well have been entered days or weeks ago.