Handicap manipulation - how to address

[D-S]

Our handicap secretary collates information from current golfing records and performance in other comps that year when looking at whether he felt a cut of any sort is merited for main club KO comp winners - and indeed finalists. This year gone sometimes it was - sometimes it wasn't. He and the club were completely 'open' about the timing of the handicap review and any proposed cuts, and any member not happy about the club's proposed 'cut' to their handicap was free to object. He is considering the feedback he has received from a number of quarters on cuts he applied - I think he swings a sharp axe fairly freely - and will consider if there should be changes to his approach. He and the club are also very open to requests from members for handicap cuts and handicap increases.

It must be a committee decision, his job is to help collate the information and receives just one vote on any decision.
Every player to whom a cut or an increase applied must to be advised in advance and given the opportunity to appeal firstly to the club and if not satisfied then to the County. The timing should be open. Clubs must be open to requests from members for handicap cuts and increases. These are all part of the Rules of Handicapping as applied in GB&I..

 

[clubchamp98]

If handicaps have to be manually adjusted it an indication that the system isn’t working properly.
For whatever reason.

If you have 20 scores in something is wrong if you need manual adjustment up or down.

 

[D-S]

If handicaps have to be manually adjusted it an indication that the system isn’t working properly.
For whatever reason.

If you have 20 scores in something is wrong if you need manual adjustment up or down.

As far as I recall and as I understand there was considerably more manual adjustment in previous systems than in WHS, which in comparison is more based on data not committee intervention.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It must be a committee decision, his job is to help collate the information and receives just one vote on any decision.
Every player to whom a cut or an increase applied must to be advised in advance and given the opportunity to appeal firstly to the club and if not satisfied then to the County. The timing should be open. Clubs must be open to requests from members for handicap cuts and increases. These are all part of the Rules of Handicapping as applied in GB&I..

All of the above applies.

 

[clubchamp98]

As far as I recall and as I understand there was considerably more manual adjustment in previous systems than in WHS, which in comparison is more based on data not committee intervention.

Yes there was ,I never said there wasn’t,
But a brand new system with all the data shouldn’t need manual adjustment ! imo of course.

Players could say “ I have put my cards in in accordance with the rules why are you putting me up or down “
They would have a point I think.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

If handicaps have to be manually adjusted it an indication that the system isn’t working properly.
For whatever reason.

If you have 20 scores in something is wrong if you need manual adjustment up or down.

Handicaps were manually adjusted previously

Prob more than now

And there are still plenty of events in golf where there can’t be automatic HC adjustments and manual intervention is required

 

[clubchamp98]

Handicaps were manually adjusted previously

Prob more than now

And there are still plenty of events in golf where there can’t be automatic HC adjustments and manual intervention is required

Didn’t say they were not.
What’s that got to do with it?

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Didn’t say they were not.
What’s that got to do with it?

Well when someone says that the “system isn’t working because manual adjustments are needed” its very relevant to highlight why manual adjustments also happen and certainly isn’t a sign that something is wrong

 

[clubchamp98]

Well when someone says that the “system isn’t working because manual adjustments are needed” its very relevant to highlight why manual adjustments also happen and certainly isn’t a sign that something is wrong

I disagree. People use the old system argument when it suits them.
But keep telling everyone they need to forget the old system!
You can’t have it both ways!

The limit was 20 cards and that sets your handicap.
So why is manual intervention needed.? If this system is so much better than UHS it shouldn’t need a comittiee to intervene.

The system is flawed ,or it’s to easy to manipulate up or down.!

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I disagree. People use the old system argument when it suits them.
But keep telling everyone they need to forget the old system!
You can’t have it both ways!

The limit was 20 cards and that sets your handicap.
So why is manual intervention needed.? If this system is so much better than UHS it shouldn’t need a comittiee to intervene.

The system is flawed ,or it’s to easy to manipulate up or down.!

How can you make automatic HC adjustments from - foursomes , singles or pairs KO’s , team events

There are very little adjustments now but you can still look at performances with KO’s

It’s why there is still an annual HC review

 

[clubchamp98]

How can you make automatic HC adjustments from - foursomes , singles or pairs KO’s , team events

There are very little adjustments now but you can still look at performances with KO’s

It’s why there is still an annual HC review

I don’t think KO comps should be anywhere near your handicap calculation.

Using these is an admission imo that the system isn’t working and it’s looking for ways to amend things.

KO comps bear no resemblance to medal or Stableford golf where your on your own.
Your own scores should set your handicap not your pp or team mates.

Just my opinion on how golf should be !

 

[Arthur Wedge]

I don’t think KO comps should be anywhere near your handicap calculation.

Using these is an admission imo that the system isn’t working and it’s looking for ways to amend things.

KO comps bear no resemblance to medal or Stableford golf where your on your own.
Your own scores should set your handicap not your pp or team mates.

Just my opinion on how golf should be !

They have always been a part of looking at someone’s handicap

Every single year KO’s are looked at for evidence in any HC review - that’s the same for all systems

There are many many golfers out there that will struggle or don’t play too many medals etc but play very well in team and KO formats and clean up due to their HC being out of sync

And at times no system can keep up with improving golfers or even going the other way

 

[The Squirrel]

If handicaps have to be manually adjusted it an indication that the system isn’t working properly.
For whatever reason.

If you have 20 scores in something is wrong if you need manual adjustment up or down.

You don't think that any of the millions of possible events in human lives should ever should fall outside of the normal and therefore need intervention? A mathematical model should cater perfectly to every last one? Sorry, that's a little absurd.

- Someone returns to golf after life changing injuries and is now disabled; can manage to struggle round once a week or less as part of their recovery. They have to wait 5+ months until they have a usable handicap? That's just cruel.

- A weekend hacker disappears for 6 months on an overseas work assignment where, it turn out, there's nothing to do all day every day .... other than play/practice at the golf course next door for several hours. Comes back playing 15 shots better. They get to win the weekly club comp' every single week for months?

In both cases there is no wrongdoing or failure of any system, yet it seems absurd to let someone knowingly play with a wrong handicap for all the time the maths takes to shake out.

You could construct 1000 similar scenarios with almost no imagination. Quite aside from the monitoring of both intentional manipulation and oblivious misuse. Of course human monitoring and adjustment of any "automatic" system will always be necessary in a complex world.

 

[Steve Wilkes]

I don’t think KO comps should be anywhere near your handicap calculation.

Using these is an admission imo that the system isn’t working and it’s looking for ways to amend things.

KO comps bear no resemblance to medal or Stableford golf where your on your own.
Your own scores should set your handicap not your pp or team mates.

Just my opinion on how golf should be !

Looking forward to seeing your system that covers all the different scenarios, so no adjustments need to be made, and covers things like:

1) Players improving or getting worse over winters where no cards can be put in due to course failing the requirements
2) Players who play one medal card a year, but plays 10's of matchplay tournaments a year
3) Rapidly improving players
4) Players struggling after an illness or injury

These are just the tip of iceberg of reasons, but you know there's a system that can sort all this out, looking forward to seeing if it's better than WHS. Which is fine for 99+% of golfer’s handicaps and a quick committee decision can sort of the outliers

 

[clubchamp98]

Looking forward to seeing your system that covers all the different scenarios, so no adjustments need to be made, and covers things like:

1) Players improving or getting worse over winters where no cards can be put in due to course failing the requirements
2) Players who play one medal card a year, but plays 10's of matchplay tournaments a year
3) Rapidly improving players
4) Players struggling after an illness or injury

These are just the tip of iceberg of reasons, but you know there's a system that can sort all this out, looking forward to seeing if it's better than WHS. Which is fine for 99+% of golfer’s handicaps and a quick committee decision can sort of the outliers

Maybe the handicap not lapsing is a problem.

If your out of the game for a long period just put three cards in again.

It was pointed out by many that this system needed constant cards going in.
But this would not be possible in this country for a lot of courses due to the weather.

All the points you made are valid but we were sold this system as the be all and end all but it still relays on some committee making arbitrary decisions whether someone loses or gains.

Your 20 cards set your handicap if it needs manual alterations this system is as slow and just as bad as UHS was.

 

[doublebogey7]

If handicaps have to be manually adjusted it an indication that the system isn’t working properly.
For whatever reason.

If you have 20 scores in something is wrong if you need manual adjustment up or down.

The problem is that the authorities with the support if clubs/golfers in GB&I refuse to to allow and insist upon all scores being acceptable for handicapping. Intil then any system implemented will require manual adjustment as the vast vast majority of rounds are not included in the handicap calculation

 

[doublebogey7]

How can you make automatic HC adjustments from - foursomes , singles or pairs KO’s , team events

There are very little adjustments now but you can still look at performances with KO’s

It’s why there is still an annual HC review

By using MLS has other parts of the world do, foursomes excepted of course.

 

[doublebogey7]

Maybe the handicap not lapsing is a problem.

If your out of the game for a long period just put three cards in again.

It was pointed out by many that this system needed constant cards going in.
But this would not be possible in this country for a lot of courses due to the weather.

All the points you made are valid but we were sold this system as the be all and end all but it still relays on some committee making arbitrary decisions whether someone loses or gains.

Your 20 cards set your handicap if it needs manual alterations this system is as slow and just as bad as UHS was.

You expect three cards to be more accurate than re-instating a handicap fora player who took a couple of years off. Your trolling us right?

 

[clubchamp98]

You expect three cards to be more accurate than re-instating a handicap fora player who took a couple of years off. Your trolling us right?

You only need three a year at my place to play in the majors and win things.

I don’t think that’s enough but lots of clubs do.

 

[clubchamp98]

The problem is that the authorities with the support if clubs/golfers in GB&I refuse to to allow and insist upon all scores being acceptable for handicapping. Intil then any system implemented will require manual adjustment as the vast vast majority of rounds are not included in the handicap calculation

That’s because most UK players prefer social golf for a pint or coffee.
They don’t want to have a card in their hand every time they stand on the first tee.