doublebogey7
Head Pro
I know and understand that but it undermines the accuracy of handicaps. You can't have it both ways.
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PGA Pro Q+A: Ask Our Expert For Advice On Improving Your Golf Game ⛳
Handicap manipulation - how to address
- Thread starter Teebs
- Start date
D-S
Well-known member
All I would say is that the handicap accuracy of US golfers, who use Most Likely Score, is notoriously inaccurate to degree that for a lot of tournaments they have to run qualifying events to establish ‘flights’ as their actual Handicap Indexes are meaningless for competitive golf.
doublebogey7
Head Pro
I might be missing the point/meaning of "flights", but how does running qualifying events help.
D-S
Well-known member
They run a pre tournament and the top x players play in the first division or flight, the next x players play in the second flight or division and so on.
The flights/divsions are ‘scratch’. This is because they cannot/ do not trust using players real HI’s.
It must be added that a lot of US golfers almost never or rarely play in comps and the vast majority of cards come from GP cards using MLS, which if you ever see in action ends up with people making odd approximations of their scores on holes/round.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Don’t want it both ways .
But my handicap should be set by my scores not matchplay 4bbb or team scores or made up MLS scores.
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
But we still adopted this system here .
It’s sadly nailed on MLS will be adopted here eventually!
AussieKB
Well-known member
No comment.......you already know what I think of World (ha) HS
doublebogey7
Head Pro
I am not suggesting the MLS is used for GP scores scores, but I don't see the problem for competition where the vast majority (I estimate 90%) of hole scores are either known (most be Net double bogey+) or as a result of genuine gimmies. The reliance on committee's to use non accaptable scores in a consistent way across the piece is not as reliable in my view as MLS would be. They are also mainly only used for reductions (as are BB scores) . Coupled with average GP scores being lower than competition scores, this all means UK handicaps are generally lower than they should be, yet all we hear is complaints about bandits, in my view the problem is not bandits but many are not able to compete becuase thier handicap is too low.
doublebogey7
Head Pro
So they run gross competetions in divisions??, well there you have your problem. Though how on earth a qualifying competition solves the problem is beyond me.
doublebogey7
Head Pro
Though I guess you expect your handicap in those formats to be made up of scores from one single other format. make that make sense.
D-S
Well-known member
I would suggest that in 4BB matchplay for example the vast majority of real completed hole scores are not known, similarly with 2 out of 4 competitions there are frequent pick ups as well.
It could be argued that if all players are holing out the vast majority of the time in these formats then you’re not playing it correctly.
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jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
It is actually a WHS requirement that any player having his handicapped altered to have the opportunity to respond to the committee before any such alteration is applied
Rules of Handicapping rule 7.1
doublebogey7
Head Pro
What rubbish, for that to be the case most teams would have to have a number of non scoring holes. I would suggest next time you play in such formats you note how many times you are not able to record a genuine scores and how many you couldn't reasonably estimate your score, remembering that net double bogey and over are irrelevant fo handicapping purposes. You will get a shock.
Swango1980
Well-known member
I'm a bit puzzled here.
I've played many Pairs and Teams of 4 events, where one player has not scored in a hole, often not even putting or chipping in the hole, because their team mate(s) are simply in a much better position. If my partner is on the green in regulation, with a shot, then it will usually mean it is unlikely my score will count, espcially if my drive was less than ideal, or I missed the green in two. Even more so if I'm not on a shot. I could still probably grind out a point or two (or even a birdie), but depending on what my partner(s) do, it can often become almost irrelevant. I've frequently in the past tried to calculate what individual scores would be in such team events, out of curiousity. Occasionally I can get a good estimate. But many times, I realise I can't really get a good idea of a genuine score for at least one person. Some golfers will try and stay in the hole as long as possible, even if their score will very unlikely count, so easier for them. Other golfers will essentially give up as soon as they realise that they can, at best, only tie with their partner(s) - even if that is for 2 or 3 points. Sometimes they may only finish, or get close to finishing, about 4 or 5 holes.
Personally, I'd like Team of 4 events and Better Ball events to score for handicap, as long as all players are asked to finish out as tho it was a singles stableford handicap. Of course, some will not agree due to pace of play. Furthermore, if anybody wanted to manipulate handicap upwards, then as soon as they know their score won't count in the team event, they could lazily complete the hole, taking a few shots worse than they would had they been trying. So, a better system might be to have an official log within WHS, that records all Team event scores, positions, etc so that when it comes to handicap review, every handicap sec will get an easy to read report that shows who has played in such events, and what their success rate is compared to the expected range. So, if Joe Bloggs has barely ever played a club qualifier and few know who he is, but a report comes in to say Joe Bloggs has played in 20 Team events over the year, won 6 of them, come in the Top 5 15 times, etc. then the handicap sec can immediately see that Joe Bloggs might need a chop.
Arthur Wedge
Well-known member
I don’t think they should ever use “MLS”
Can’t have any Handicap adjustments based on holes where someone didn’t put the ball in the hole imo
Can’t have any Handicap adjustments based on holes where someone didn’t put the ball in the hole imo
D-S
Well-known member
I disagree. I have refereed many 4BB matches and keep a scorecard and my experience in trying to record all performances does not match with your assertion.
Also if only competition team and matchplay scores, then this will not contribute much extra useful data as most clubs don't run more than 4 or so knockouts a year and only a smallish proportion of members enter them and half of them by definition only complete one round. There are a few team comps but the most common format is 4BB which is already covered. For the small amount of extra round included the introduction of MLS and its issues would hardly be worth it.
Interestingly this is obviously the view of England Golf as they introduced the 'scale up' process for the recent inclusion of 4BB scores, the most obvious way of including them would have been by using MLS - they chose not to take this option and had to go through automating, explaining and educating players and administrators about the scale up process. This fits with conversations and information I have had with and from Handicap authorities where they have expressed their extreme reservations about the level of accuracy and huge manipulation possibilities that MLS brings with it (see USA).
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Yes medal/stableford sets your handicap
You can’t have several 8/9 on holes in that format.
But you could win holes in matchplay with a 9 as long as your op has a 10.
D-S
Well-known member
Just to show MLS and its difficulties in reality that I have seen, I thought I’d show a typical scenario to show its randomness - admittedly I have picked distances that highlight the point but they are not untypical. Variations of this will and do happen on almost every hole not necessarily to all players but to some. These variations are cumulative over rounds.
This is of course ignoring the fact that in matchplay players are playing to match or better their opponent’s score not trying achieve the best total score for themselves on that hole
A&B are playing C&D in 4BB matchplay. It’s a par 3 only player A gets a shot. (The players are not carrying a tape measure.)
Player A hits it to 8ft.
Player B hits into greenside bunker.
Player C hits it onto the green 25 ft away.
Player D misses the green about 10 yards off.
Player D plays first, needs to hole it as Player A has 2 putts from 8 ft for a net 2, chips it 20 ish feet past.
Player B is next, partner has an odds on 2 but has a go anyway gets it out to 20 ish feet.
Player C is next needs to hole it as well, misses and goes 5-6 feet past.
They decide Player B is furthest away, he says to his partner “to speed things up just lag your putt first”. Player A does so, gets the net 2 wins the hole, they all walk to the next.
What should they all put down?
According to MLS.
Player A should put down a 3 as his putt was conceded and is 5ft or less away.
Player B is 20 ish feet away. He could put down 4, 5 or 6 depending on judgement of if his putt is more or less than 20 feet away and the difficulty of the shot and the ability of the golfer.
Player C is 5 ish feet away, he could put down 3 or 4 dependent on if his putt is 5 or less feet away or slightly more than that.
Player D is 20 ish feet away. He could put down 4, 5 or 6 depending on judgement of if his putt is more or less than 20 feet away and the difficulty of the shot and the ability of the golfer.
In reality, that I have seen, players just say ‘put me down for a x”, this is coloured by their own agenda or vanity or how much they can be bothered. Any way cumulatively it leads to some pretty random scores and handicaps.
This is of course ignoring the fact that in matchplay players are playing to match or better their opponent’s score not trying achieve the best total score for themselves on that hole
A&B are playing C&D in 4BB matchplay. It’s a par 3 only player A gets a shot. (The players are not carrying a tape measure.)
Player A hits it to 8ft.
Player B hits into greenside bunker.
Player C hits it onto the green 25 ft away.
Player D misses the green about 10 yards off.
Player D plays first, needs to hole it as Player A has 2 putts from 8 ft for a net 2, chips it 20 ish feet past.
Player B is next, partner has an odds on 2 but has a go anyway gets it out to 20 ish feet.
Player C is next needs to hole it as well, misses and goes 5-6 feet past.
They decide Player B is furthest away, he says to his partner “to speed things up just lag your putt first”. Player A does so, gets the net 2 wins the hole, they all walk to the next.
What should they all put down?
According to MLS.
Player A should put down a 3 as his putt was conceded and is 5ft or less away.
Player B is 20 ish feet away. He could put down 4, 5 or 6 depending on judgement of if his putt is more or less than 20 feet away and the difficulty of the shot and the ability of the golfer.
Player C is 5 ish feet away, he could put down 3 or 4 dependent on if his putt is 5 or less feet away or slightly more than that.
Player D is 20 ish feet away. He could put down 4, 5 or 6 depending on judgement of if his putt is more or less than 20 feet away and the difficulty of the shot and the ability of the golfer.
In reality, that I have seen, players just say ‘put me down for a x”, this is coloured by their own agenda or vanity or how much they can be bothered. Any way cumulatively it leads to some pretty random scores and handicaps.
rulie
Head Pro
What hole score (number of strokes) is used for handicap purposes when a player 'blobs' a hole in Stableford?
Double bogey I believe
