Handicap manipulation - how to address

[doublebogey7]

Don't we already have a version of MLS? How else do they work out 18 hole scores from shorter rounds?

Exactly, I am failing to see how MLS provides less accuracy than a score automatically added for a hole a player did not even tee off from.

 

[wjemather]

Don't we already have a version of MLS? How else do they work out 18 hole scores from shorter rounds?

No. The end product is the same but the mechanisms are unrelated.

WHS uses a back-end "Expected Scores" calculation based on the player's HI to scale up 9-hole scores and scores from 18-hole rounds where holes have not been played, in order to produce an 18-hole score differential.
"Most Likely Score" (MLS) uses a matrix that enables the player to record a score that reasonably reflects how they've played a hole when they haven't completed it in formats that do not require holing out (match play, four-ball stroke play), in order to produce an 18-hole score differential.

The aim of both is simply to produce an 18-hole score differential that reflects how the player has scored, and ultimately a Handicap Index that accurately reflects their average best scoring without needing the intervention of the handicap committee.

 

[Neilds]

No. The end product is the same but the mechanisms are unrelated.

WHS uses a back-end "Expected Scores" calculation based on the player's HI to scale up 9-hole scores and scores from 18-hole rounds where holes have not been played, in order to produce an 18-hole score differential.
"Most Likely Score" (MLS) uses a matrix that enables the player to record a score that reasonably reflects how they've played a hole when they haven't completed it in formats that do not require holing out (match play, four-ball stroke play), in order to produce an 18-hole score differential.

The aim of both is simply to produce an 18-hole score differential that reflects how the player has scored, and ultimately a Handicap Index that accurately reflects their average best scoring without needing the intervention of the handicap committee.

The mechanisms may be unrelated but the principle is very similar - work out what you might have scored when you didn't score. All the rest is just fluff and nonsense

 

[wjemather]

The mechanisms may be unrelated but the principle is very similar - work out what you might have scored when you didn't score. All the rest is just fluff and nonsense

The only purpose is to produce an 18-hole score differential that reasonably reflects how you've actually scored using the strokes you have actually played, while taking into account demonstrated ability, in order to have a reasonably accurate Handicap Index.

They are not a prediction of how you might have scored had you completed every hole.

 

[Colin L]

The mechanisms may be unrelated but the principle is very similar - work out what you might have scored when you didn't score. All the rest is just fluff and nonsense

The main and important difference is that that one method applies the same calculation to every player, the other is down to the whim of the individual player. whims..

 

[rulie]

The main and important difference is that that one method applies the same calculation to every player, the other is down to the whim of the individual player. whims..

Rule 1.2a, "All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by: Acting with integrity..."
Unfortunately, there are people who do not meet this standard, but that doesn't mean that the Rules/systems are wrong.

 

[doublebogey7]

The main and important difference is that that one method applies the same calculation to every player, the other is down to the whim of the individual player. whims..

Sorry but MLS is no more down to the individual whims of the player than any score they choose to write down. For bpth their are a set of rules that the player is required to adhere too.

 

[nickjdavis]

Rule 1.2a, "All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by: Acting with integrity..."
Unfortunately, there are people who do not meet this standard, but that doesn't mean that the Rules/systems are wrong.

Players can still PLAY the game and act with integrity....but two people may still have wildly differing opinions about what a players score might be when they did not hole out....pretty much most of us think we are better then we are and if we picked up with a 30 footer left on a hole, how many of us think we would have reliably got down in 2 and how many might put down a more feasible 3? (you only need to read the post about putting where Orikoru was promoting his "lag it close" theory over rolling the putt 3ft past to see how opinions and expectations differ).

Me? 30ft? I'm up and down in 2 putts 90% of the time. Who are "you" to cast doubts on my integrity?

 

[nickjdavis]

Sorry but MLS is no more down to the individual whims of the player than any score they choose to write down. For bpth their are a set of rules that the player is required to adhere too.

But the rules of MLS are subjective, as they require an estimation from the player as to their ability to get down in 1,2 or 3 from whatever position they may be in when they picked up.

If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:	Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:	Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:	Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

I'd frankly argue with the last one....if I'm 25 yards from the hole I'd like to think I might get up and down in 2 strokes sometimes...depending on the shot facing me.

So yeah....there are rules around MLS...but they are pretty fluffy.

 

[wjemather]

Players can still PLAY the game and act with integrity....but two people may still have wildly differing opinions about what a players score might be when they did not hole out....pretty much most of us think we are better then we are and if we picked up with a 30 footer left on a hole, how many of us think we would have reliably got down in 2 and how many might put down a more feasible 3? (you only need to read the post about putting where Orikoru was promoting his "lag it close" theory over rolling the putt 3ft past to see how opinions and expectations differ).

Me? 30ft? I'm up and down in 2 putts 90% of the time. Who are "you" to cast doubts on my integrity?

Not that there is much the matrix allows players to have an opinion about in the vast majority of invocations, but (aside from someone being awkward for the sake of it or to make a point, in practice) any difference in opinion would never be more than (a not so wild) one stroke.

 

[D-S]

But the rules of MLS are subjective, as they require an estimation from the player as to their ability to get down in 1,2 or 3 from whatever position they may be in when they picked up.

If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:	Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:	Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:	Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

I'd frankly argue with the last one....if I'm 25 yards from the hole I'd like to think I might get up and down in 2 strokes sometimes...depending on the shot facing me.

So yeah....there are rules around MLS...but they are pretty fluffy.

Also they require players to estimate more than or less than 20 yards, another area of subjectivity unless they laser it. Also I’m not sure more or less than 5 feet will be adhered to strictly.
I am sure most would/will try their best to be as honest as possible but it is very easy for the less scrupulous to make judgements that meet their own agenda.

 

[wjemather]

But the rules of MLS are subjective, as they require an estimation from the player as to their ability to get down in 1,2 or 3 from whatever position they may be in when they picked up.

If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:	Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:	Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:	Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

I'd frankly argue with the last one....if I'm 25 yards from the hole I'd like to think I might get up and down in 2 strokes sometimes...depending on the shot facing me.

So yeah....there are rules around MLS...but they are pretty fluffy.

It's not called "Might Do Sometimes Score" for good reason.

 

[D-S]

Not that there is much the matrix allows players to have an opinion about in the vast majority of invocations, but (aside from someone being awkward for the sake of it or to make a point, in practice) any difference in opinion would never be more than (a not so wild) one stroke.

In my experience it doesnt work like that.

 

[nickjdavis]

Not that there is much the matrix allows players to have an opinion about in the vast majority of invocations, but (aside from someone being awkward for the sake of it or to make a point, in practice) any difference in opinion would never be more than (a not so wild) one stroke.

That's fair enough...was just highlighting the rules are not as fixed as folk might think they should be.

I remember a few years ago for a bit of fun, I played a social round by myself, holed out everything and then retrospectively went back through the round and determined what my MLS would have been, if I'd applied the MLS rules and my best fairest judgement on each hole as if i'd picked up at various stages.

IIRC....the difference between what I scored and my MLS was no more than a couple of shots over the course of a round...(actually score was 81/82 if memory serves correctly).

 

[rulie]

But the rules of MLS are subjective, as they require an estimation from the player as to their ability to get down in 1,2 or 3 from whatever position they may be in when they picked up.

If the ball lies on the putting green, and is no more than 5 feet (1.5 metres) from the hole:	Add one additional stroke.
If the ball lies between 5 feet (1.5 metres) and 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:	Add 2 or 3 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.
If the ball lies more than 20 yards (20 metres) from the hole:	Add 3 or 4 additional strokes, depending on the position of the ball, the difficulty of the green and the ability of the player.

I'd frankly argue with the last one....if I'm 25 yards from the hole I'd like to think I might get up and down in 2 strokes sometimes...depending on the shot facing me.

So yeah....there are rules around MLS...but they are pretty fluffy.

The Rules of golf also discuss players using "reasonable judgement" - doing what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances.
If you want it to be "cut and dried", dream on.

 

[nickjdavis]

The Rules of golf also discuss players using "reasonable judgement" - doing what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances.
If you want it to be "cut and dried", dream on.

I dont...was responding to DB7 who said that MLS had rules that required adhering to...was just pointing out the rules were "interpretable".

 

[rulie]

I dont...was responding to DB7 who said that MLS had rules that required adhering to...was just pointing out the rules were "interpretable".

Sorry then, however, for any "interpretation" of MLS, the player is expected use reasonable judgement. (in any case, cheaters will cheat. Fortunately, they are in the vast minority but still require attention, often disproportionately.)

 

[Swango1980]

Players can still PLAY the game and act with integrity....but two people may still have wildly differing opinions about what a players score might be when they did not hole out....pretty much most of us think we are better then we are and if we picked up with a 30 footer left on a hole, how many of us think we would have reliably got down in 2 and how many might put down a more feasible 3? (you only need to read the post about putting where Orikoru was promoting his "lag it close" theory over rolling the putt 3ft past to see how opinions and expectations differ).

Me? 30ft? I'm up and down in 2 putts 90% of the time. Who are "you" to cast doubts on my integrity?

And it can depend on the day.

Some days, I know I will not have more than 2 putts from anywhere. Other days, I seem to have more 3 putts than 2 putts

 

[Swango1980]

To stop the arguments, just put the ball in the bleeding hole 18 times, job done

 

[rulie]

To stop the arguments, just put the ball in the bleeding hole 18 times, job done

and if you're in the group behind when the player takes 18 shots to reach the green?