Handicap manipulation - how to address

[Neilds]

Hang on a minute. Can't believe the pile on here. People complain when someone f

Did someone pile on when you were typing?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Did someone pile on when you were typing?

Don't worry, I've seen them off

 

[wjemather]

Having been on a handicap committee for quite a few years I can say we have reduced the handicaps of quite a few. One was a cut by 5
He was regularly returning scores of 42 - 45 points in swindles but would never put in cards for handicap purposes.

The organisers of two of the swindles kept records of his scores. One of the swindles is organised by me and I play in the other.
A letter of complaint was then submitted by me to the handicap committee ( I was also on that committee) for a review under Rule 4.4.

Why are the swindle scores not being submitted for handicapping? If this was being done, there would be less chance of having an issue with someone protecting a high handicap to cheat money from others.

Secondly, why is he still being allowed to play in swindles if it's that obvious that his handicap is too high and intentionally being maintained that way?


PS: should have said, not really interested in generalisations and/or speculation from those with no knowledge of the swindles in question.

 

[Neilds]

Why are the swindle scores not being submitted for handicapping? If this was being done, there would be less chance of having an issue with someone protecting a high handicap to cheat money from others.

Some/a lot (?) of swindles, my winter one for example, have gimmees, the OOB drop in the fairway and often pick and place everywhere, etc so are non qualifying.

 

[clubchamp98]

Hang on a minute. Can't believe the pile on here. People complain when someone isn't putting in comp scores, does well in informal comps. I'm assuming, always dangerous, that the example was a repeat offender and the genuine h/c bearing little relevance to the one they held. If this happens regularly then what Jim did was correct, surely .

Should people just grumble and do nothing? If it's obvious, surely this action was correct

Shows an obvious flaw in the system when the course is non qualifying in winter.

From a cheats charter to a snitches one.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Hang on a minute. Can't believe the pile on here. People complain when someone isn't putting in comp scores, does well in informal comps. I'm assuming, always dangerous, that the example was a repeat offender and the genuine h/c bearing little relevance to the one they held. If this happens regularly then what Jim did was correct, surely .

Should people just grumble and do nothing? If it's obvious, surely this action was correct

It all depends on what the player is doing on comps

If someone is just doing well in social comps then the swindle just do the HC cut

That’s what any swindle i know does

Also depends on how far back - 5 shot cut is something that a HC used to do ages ago

 

[Arthur Wedge]

Why are the swindle scores not being submitted for handicapping? If this was being done, there would be less chance of having an issue with someone protecting a high handicap to cheat money from others.

Secondly, why is he still being allowed to play in swindles if it's that obvious that his handicap is too high and intentionally being maintained that way?

Maybe it’s like plenty of swindles and that they have gimmies or pick and place etc and don’t fully play to the rules

 

[Lord Tyrion]

@wjemather Jim can answer for himself but to answer your first point, we don't know when this happened. It sounds, to me, like this occured before the pressure for informal comps to be qualifiers for h/c

 

[Arthur Wedge]

If it was before all the changes etc then people used to get wild cuts based on all sorts of reasons

 

[IanM]

If it was before all the changes etc then people used to get wild cuts based on all sorts of reasons

Knocking the handicap sec out of the matchplay was a common one!

 

[Arthur Wedge]

my friend had his best round after playing for only 6 months - the club sec cut him 8 shots

I got cut 3 shots after he watched one shot into a par 3

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It doesn't matter how many Opens or courses you've played. Unless you make a point of contacting the handicap committee at every single Open venue and course you play, and ask them how often they adjust the handicaps of members at their club. And I doubt anybody asks that question, why would they?

And as for the courses you've been a member of: Perhaps they have poor handicap committees that don't review handicaps of their members. Or, perhaps they do adjust handocaps, but you don't find out about it because you are not involved in the process, and they don't feel the need to run everything by you? You'd only find out if they adjusted your handicap, or perhaps a mate of yours.

The only "fact" you stated was that YOU have not seen or heard of a player having their handicap reduced by a Committee. But, clearly, that is not a fact in terms of reality, as several others have described how they are aware that is occurs frequently.

Cuts occur quite often at my place…including for those winning KO comps…either individually or in pairs.

 

[Swango1980]

It all depends on what the player is doing on comps

If someone is just doing well in social comps then the swindle just do the HC cut

That’s what any swindle i know does

Also depends on how far back - 5 shot cut is something that a HC used to do ages ago

Perhaps not every club and every swindle have the same processes and swindle formats that you have??

What does your club do if a Player has a much lower swindle handicap that their official handicap, and you know he is much better than his official handicap? Do nothing I guess? And then you'd be the first to complain when they thrash you in the club knockout, or clean up in a team open where handicaps cannot get touched.

 

[nickjdavis]

If it was before all the changes etc then people used to get wild cuts based on all sorts of reasons

Many years ago (20+) at my place, you could enter the bar for a pint after a social round and the barman would ask you how you got on... if you were stupid enough to pipe up with something like "played really well today, managed 39 points" he would automatically cut you two shots.

(For absolute clarity....the barman was also the club owner!!)

 

[Swango1980]

Hang on a minute. Can't believe the pile on here. People complain when someone isn't putting in comp scores, does well in informal comps. I'm assuming, always dangerous, that the example was a repeat offender and the genuine h/c bearing little relevance to the one they held. If this happens regularly then what Jim did was correct, surely .

Should people just grumble and do nothing? If it's obvious, surely this action was correct

Incredible, isn't it. Some very sensitive people in here.

Moan and moan about bandits and how they've never heard of a handicap secretary chopping a players handicap at review. And as soon as a handicap secretary explains that they have cut somebody's handicap, then they get abuse thrown at them about being off the Xmas Card list, being bitter, not liking the person winning, etc. It almost sounds like the sort of thing BANDITs would say, rather than from those that hate bandits.

It is a perfect example of why many golfers will not go near the Committee. I've recently been asked if I would like to take an active role in that sort of thing, but I'm very much likely to say no for exactly the reason above. I'm sure Jim is a decent chap who does a good job at his club, but you lose either way if you are on the handicap committee. You do nothing, and people complain that there are bandits in the club and the committee are impotent. Or you review and cut the odd handicap, and you are bitter.

 

[jim8flog]

Why are the swindle scores not being submitted for handicapping? If this was being done, there would be less chance of having an issue with someone protecting a high handicap to cheat money from others.

Secondly, why is he still being allowed to play in swindles if it's that obvious that his handicap is too high and intentionally being maintained that way?


PS: should have said, not really interested in generalisations and/or speculation from those with no knowledge of the swindles in question.

When CONGU brought in the guideline I was on the H/cap committee and I went of the organiser of every swindle I knew of and asked for a copy of their records. Most of the answers were along the lines of - they would only do it if every single swindle did it and you can imagine the replies I got from some.

One of the swindles brought in the rule that you could only win the kitty if you put in a cards for handicap mainly based upon him. He had been repeatedly asked to do so and never did.

I tried to get the same for the one I organised and it was turned down flat by all but one player.

He was well known even before the WHS came in for deliberately 'spoiling' his scores in comps because he knew he could win more money in the swindles.

To me it would be far simpler to bring in the rule that a player must return a card every time they play and to have 'plays like'.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

When CONGU brought in the guideline I was on the H/cap committee and I went of the organiser of every swindle I knew of and asked for a copy of their records. Most of the answers were along the lines of - they would only do it if every single swindle did it and you can imagine the replies I got from some.

One of the swindles brought in the rule that you could only win the kitty if you put in a cards for handicap mainly based upon him. He had been repeatedly asked to do so and never did.

I tried to get the same for the one I organised and it was turned down flat by all but one player.

He was well known even before the WHS came in for deliberately 'spoiling' his scores in comps because he knew he could win more money in the swindles.

To me it would be far simpler to bring in the rule that a player must return a card every time they play and to have 'plays like'.

Couple of questions

How often is he playing comps and how well did he do

And when was this 5 shot cut ? Before WHS etc

 

[jim8flog]

Cuts occur quite often at my place…including for those winning KO comps…either individually or in pairs.

That is something that should not be done and was in the CONGU manual at least 15 years ago when I first joined the committee.

 

[jim8flog]

Couple of questions

How often is he playing comps and how well did he do

And when was this 5 shot cut ? Before WHS etc

The only comps he played in were Sats non optional ones so about 8 or so a year (as already said was known to deliberately 'ruin the card'). He had increased his handicap by quite a lot under the WHS.

The 5 shot cut was just a few years ago.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

The only comps he played in were Sats non optional ones so about 8 or so a year (as already said was known to deliberately 'ruin the card'). He had increased his handicap by quite a lot under the WHS.

The 5 shot cut was just a few years ago.

Did the swindle not look to cut him or put restrictions in

If he was “known”’to ruin the card then sanctions need to be applied to him and more than just a 5 shot cut

We kicked someone out of our swindle who we suspected of having pencil issues