Colin L
Tour Winner
Obviously. They are falsifying scores. But such deception is not a result of the WHS system but of the methods of returning scores electronically, methods that were on the go and developing before 2020.
Handicap manipulation - how to address
- Thread starter Teebs
- Start date
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
So you think their lying ?
wjemather
Well-known member
No. I think you are combining speculation with the actual examples to arrive at "lots".
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Am I.
Do you have any proof of that or are you speculating?
clubchamp98
Journeyman Pro
Been lots on here!
Crazyface
Tour Winner
BTatHome
Tour Winner
I've never seen it done, and even with my basic understanding of WHS I don't know how it could done (without many many general play cards being used). It was mentioned earlier in the thread by another poster as happening to his handicap, so assumed it was something quite common.
wjemather
Well-known member
It's technically possible to increase a HI by 3 in a couple of scores but it requires a very extreme set of circumstances so in reality it's very unlikely.
rulie
Head Pro
It would be highly unusual circumstances that the latest three scores out of 20 would increase handicap index by three.
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jim8flog
Journeyman Pro
Edited - deleted as I mis read what you are saying.
when i was in Portugal a couple of weeks ago there was a conf of R&A USGA and a few other Golfing bodies. i got chatting to a couple of them and mentioned this and one gave me a knowing look and winked but would say nothing more 
rulie
Head Pro
As you know, it's good practice not to believe everything that is posted on an internet forum, nor make assumptions about the validity of those posts! Cheers.
Sort of a "its been a monumental cockup, buy hey, Ive got another all expenses trip to Portugal out of it !" type knowingwhen i was in Portugal a couple of weeks ago there was a conf of R&A USGA and a few other Golfing bodies. i got chatting to a couple of them and mentioned this and one gave me a knowing look and winked but would say nothing more
?This is true. But more cards has facilitated such handicap increases in a short period, when in the past they were effectively impossible.
True. But the ease with which scores can be manufactured, or nudged in the desired direction, in WHS allows it to be more manipulated. There are people who might yes be inclined to break the rules, but the deterrant or difficulty of doing so is also a factor. We probably agree on this - there are more dishonest scores being submitted under WHS than there were under UHS ?
rulie
Head Pro
That's a broad question - do you mean more dishonest scores in total, or more dishonest scores per player submitting handicap scores? Since there are now more players submitting more scores, the percentage of dishonest scores then and now might be the same?
Colin L
Tour Winner
The ease by which a score or scores of scores can be falsified is a constant regardless of of the way in which scores are processed and a handicap calculated . Whether a player simply makes up figures or deliberately plays poorly neither form of deception has an anything to do with handicapping process into which the scores are entered. Put fraudulent scores into any handicapping system and you can get a false handicap out. Why not concentrate your thoughts on how the fraud can be prevented in the first place which is to do with the processes of submitting scores, not the processing of them?
I am not saying it is anything to do with computer process or the method of processing cards.
I am saying the very existance of GP scores lowers the barriers to fraudulent score entry, that was not possible under UHS. Under UHS, scores for handicap were, in the main, competition scores, typically requiring an entry fee, under at least some aegis of a club or committee, limited in opportunity, and came with the knowledge that results were published. GP scores can be submitted daily, for free, need not form part of any formal competition with any greater sense of need for compliance with the rules that might bring, and brings greater returns, and faster, in terms of handicap increase scope. i.e. the crime is now easier, and yields greater return. A gimme here, a favourable drop there, a nit-picky rules blind eye somewhere else, are more easily seen as victimless crime in a GP card scenario.
AussieKB
Well-known member
Went down point 3 yesterday, got point 2 back today, this sandbagger is doing well 
I am sure the great majority here are not submitting dishonest scores. But with greater easy of submitting dishonest scores under WHS, I do suggest that of all scores submitted in total, there are now more dishonest scores. Those so minded, can submit them more easily, and, the lower barrier to submitting a dishonest score probably has increased the number of people who have/do submit managed scores. They might have baulked in the past a cheating in what had the formal status of a competition, or even 'pulling up' over the last three holes to drop out of the buffer zone. But playing with a mate in a GP round there is a greater sense that putting in a bad round is a victimless crime, and might do so.
Maybe coloured by my own attidude and background of competitions are where you truly try your best to produce your best score, but I would question how those putting in lots of GP score as EG urges, are really making the effort to give their best everytime they tee it up. I know I couldnt. So I dont put in GP cards at all.
Separately but relevant, one can look at the USA, where GP card culture has been the norm, and how widespread gimmes, mulligans, drops in the general area for an OB are. Sure, not every golfers there is doing this every time they play. But a not insignificant portion of golfers cheerful admit to doing so there. US handicaps averaging 3 shots lower than English ones I think tells that story also.
