Handicap manipulation - how to address

[jim8flog]

Again, you cannot claim 'same' as happy with it.

The bigger point though is that a very significant proportion consider it a disimprovement. This is the failure. Success would have been a reported positive improvement to all or almost all. The transition has been a unsatisfactory and a disimprovement to (yes, according to this poll, but that is the data being discussed) 37% of respondents. Even if it were 10% that would still be a bad outcome.

Possibly the mistake I and others have made is in the expectation that the goal of WHS was to improve matters for golfers. It would seem that was not the case, and damage to the handicapping golf experience of a large number of existing golfers is irrelevant in the thinking of the authorities.

When it comes to how people feel about it is some of my views -

having been on handicap committee for many there were very few players who actually understood fully how the previous system worked - most noticeable was those who though getting 36 points was playing to handicap (one thing the latest revision has improved) all they ever new about was 0.1 increase and 0.1 or more decreases.

The better potability of handicaps for different courses has been a major improvement, I used to play about 20 other course a year and knew which ones I was likely to play to handicap at and those I would not.

Most importantly I play with around 40 -50 other players in various swindles and none of them have ever complained to me about the new handicap system.

On a personal level as a declining player I have welcomed the new system whole heartedly as the only way to get a handicap that reflected my current ability under the UHS was to request a handicap review. In 3 years I have gone from 8 to current 15 and it is only caps that is stopping me from going to 18 which would be truly reflective, that would never have happened under the old system. On a similar vein I have seen an awful lot of players handicaps rise in accordance with their ability having previously had handicaps they could never play to.

 

[AussieKB]

There would not be a round that I play that the OZ HS does not come up, and that is with a lot of golfers at a lot of courses, anyone over 15 handicap will generally say they like it, but the lower the handicap the more negative is the feeling.

Cannot think of one single figure handicap who has expressed love for our System.

Quite funny how most people know when they are dropping a flag off, no matter what handicap.

It is so Open to abuse most people just accept it, have not heard of one player having their handicap reviewed here, but heh blame the Handicap Committee and not the System that allows it.

 

[nickjdavis]

There would not be a round that I play that the OZ HS does not come up, and that is with a lot of golfers at a lot of courses, anyone over 15 handicap will generally say they like it, but the lower the handicap the more negative is the feeling.

Cannot think of one single figure handicap who has expressed love for our System.

Quite funny how most people know when they are dropping a flag off, no matter what handicap.

It is so Open to abuse most people just accept it, have not heard of one player having their handicap reviewed here, but heh blame the Handicap Committee and not the System that allows it.

This is no different at all from the UHS system where players on an exact handicap of X.4 always knew that "a round outside of the buffer zone would give them a shot back" for the next comp.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

When it comes to how people feel about it is some of my views -

having been on handicap committee for many there were very few players who actually understood fully how the previous system worked - most noticeable was those who though getting 36 points was playing to handicap (one thing the latest revision has improved) all they ever new about was 0.1 increase and 0.1 or more decreases.

The better potability of handicaps for different courses has been a major improvement, I used to play about 20 other course a year and knew which ones I was likely to play to handicap at and those I would not.

Most importantly I play with around 40 -50 other players in various swindles and none of them have ever complained to me about the new handicap system.

On a personal level as a declining player I have welcomed the new system whole heartedly as the only way to get a handicap that reflected my current ability under the UHS was to request a handicap review. In 3 years I have gone from 8 to current 15 and it is only caps that is stopping me from going to 18 which would be truly reflective, that would never have happened under the old system. On a similar vein I have seen an awful lot of players handicaps rise in accordance with their ability having previously had handicaps they could never play to.

I believe this very true.

At my place many higher handicappers did not play in comps - especially off the back tees, but not only - as they felt they hadn’t a chance off their handicap. But maybe that was because their ability was inconsistent with their handicap and the course difficulty. I think this, as our slope rerating (coming into effect 1st March) has jumped from 125 to 136. This suggests that previously the course was too difficult for their ability against their handicap. So for instance a gent with HI 22.0 will see his CH jump from 25 to 28.

It’s for a different reason but has the same effect…that player off 22.0 has seen his handicap adjusted quickly to reflect his ability, as WHS does in a much more appropriate and efficient way than the old system. This will make him more competitive and more likely to participate in comps.

 

[rulefan]

I think this, as our course rerating (coming into effect 1st March) has jumped from 125 to 136.

Did you mean Slope?
However it would be interesting to know how your Course and Bogey Ratings have changed.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Did you mean Slope?
However it would be interesting to know how your Course and Bogey Ratings have changed.

I did...corrected. CR has also increased from 71.6 to 72.5 (par 72) for back tees.

Don't know Bogey Ratings - I guess the club will have that (not published as not relevant to member play). However I can see that for a gent with HI of 20.0 the CH off back tees has gone up from 22 to 25

 

[AussieKB]

I would love to be given 3 extra shots.....

 

[rulefan]

I did...corrected. CR has also increased from 71.6 to 72.5 (par 72) for back tees.

Don't know Bogey Ratings - I guess the club will have that (not published as not relevant to member play). However I can see that for a gent with HI of 20.0 the CH off back tees has gone up from 22 to 25

Yes, Bogey Rating itself is never really used other than to calculate the Slope. This would tally with your suggestion about the difficulty for higher cappers.

 

[D-S]

I did...corrected. CR has also increased from 71.6 to 72.5 (par 72) for back tees.

Don't know Bogey Ratings - I guess the club will have that (not published as not relevant to member play). However I can see that for a gent with HI of 20.0 the CH off back tees has gone up from 22 to 25

Assuming it is Farnham Golf Club, the bogey rating off the back (silver) tees is 97.7, off the next set (purple) 95.0.
All available on the USGA website.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Assuming it is Farnham Golf Club, the bogey rating off the back (silver) tees is 97.7, off the next set (purple) 95.0.
All available on the USGA website.

OK - correct assumption - and as you quote figures for silver and purple, rather than yellow and white, these will be the new ratings (we aren't moving to them until 1st March). Stacks up with my uninformed analysis of what happens to a 20.0 HI player. Off Silver and calculating CR plus CH...72.5 plus 25 gives 97.5...against a bogey rating of 97.7

 

[Dazza Downunder]

There would not be a round that I play that the OZ HS does not come up, and that is with a lot of golfers at a lot of courses, anyone over 15 handicap will generally say they like it, but the lower the handicap the more negative is the feeling.

That may be your experience, and you have expressed it often enough that you clearly have a strong conviction around it. But let me assure you and other readers on this forum that it is not my experience.

Like you, I play with a lot of golfers at a lot of courses in Australia and I can safely say that I can't remember the last time it came up - not on the course and not in the clubhouse. It is just not discussed. In my experience it is not an issue. On that basis, I can't help but wonder if it comes up in EVERY round that you play, whether you are the one raising it.

Also, for your information, my handicap is less than 15 and I have no negative feelings about the Australian implementation of WHS.

It isn't for me or anyone else to pass judgement on whether your experience is real or valid or not, but I'd be grateful if you refrained from presenting your views as a universal Australian experience. Because it isn't. As a fellow Australian, I am pretty embarrassed at some of the things you come up with.

 

[AussieKB]

That may be your experience, and you have expressed it often enough that you clearly have a strong conviction around it. But let me assure you and other readers on this forum that it is not my experience.

Like you, I play with a lot of golfers at a lot of courses in Australia and I can safely say that I can't remember the last time it came up - not on the course and not in the clubhouse. It is just not discussed. In my experience it is not an issue. On that basis, I can't help but wonder if it comes up in EVERY round that you play, whether you are the one raising it.

Also, for your information, my handicap is less than 15 and I have no negative feelings about the Australian implementation of WHS.

It isn't for me or anyone else to pass judgement on whether your experience is real or valid or not, but I'd be grateful if you refrained from presenting your views as a universal Australian experience. Because it isn't. As a fellow Australian, I am pretty embarrassed at some of the things you come up with.

We are all entitled to our views, yours is noted, but if my views upsets you, then I suggest you don't read them.

Played last Saturday and a 12 handicapper brought it up, he has been as low as 5 a few years ago, so will mention your thoughts to him next time we play.

Don't know why you should be embarrassed by someone else's view whether he is OZ Kiwi Pom Yank or whomever, we all have our own opinion, and I do not talk for all of OZ, or single figure golfers, just like you don't.

 

[BTatHome]

I would love to be given 3 extra shots.....

plenty of people on here say you can get 3 three shots back in a couple of rounds, simple enough with this system ..... apparently

 

[clubchamp98]

plenty of people on here say you can get 3 three shots back in a couple of rounds, simple enough with this system ..... apparently

You can if you’re that way inclined!
That’s part of the problem.

 

[Colin L]

You can if you’re that way inclined!
That’s part of the problem.

It gets wearisome saying the same thing over again but that is a problem with people who are inclined to break rules, laws, whatever in order to gain some illegitimate advantage. Any golf handicap system will be open to the simplest kind of cheating - manufacturing scores.

 

[clubchamp98]

It gets wearisome saying the same thing over again but that is a problem with people who are inclined to break rules, laws, whatever in order to gain some illegitimate advantage. Any golf handicap system will be open to the simplest kind of cheating - manufacturing scores.

It also gets wearisome repeating that it’s been made so easy to do it.!

 

[rulie]

plenty of people on here say you can get 3 three shots back in a couple of rounds, simple enough with this system ..... apparently

Could you provide/describe the process that they reportedly use?

 

[Colin L]

It also gets wearisome repeating that it’s been made so easy to do it.

No-one has yet come up with a convincing explanation of how it is easier to falsify a score now than it was then. Can you?

 

[clubchamp98]

No-one has yet come up with a convincing explanation of how it is easier to falsify a score now than it was then. Can you?

I agree but GP cards are much more prevalent now than under the old system.
So anyone that way inclined will do it more imo.

Lots of examples of cards in car parks and putting cards in from other courses without even playing there.
Are these people telling lies ?

 

[wjemather]

I agree but GP cards are much more prevalent now than under the old system.
So anyone that way inclined will do it more imo.

Lots of examples of cards in car parks and putting cards in from other courses without even playing there.
Are these people telling lies ?

Lots of speculation about, but very few actual examples.