Handicap manipulation - how to address

[rosecott]

Most club competition C of Cs do not allow Pros to enter. Same with Opens, Team Leagues etc. Pros can’t also represent their Counties or enter most/all elite amateur competitions. All because they spend their lives selling Mars Bars and teaching golf.
As I mentioned above ‘proper’ professional golfers who make most of their living through prize money should not be playing, but people who hardly ever play in ‘proper’ golf tournaments and make less money from playing golf than a lot of amateurs being banned from amateur golf seems odd.

It is interesting to look at the results of competitions where pros do play in comps along with amateurs. In my county, the results in the Winter Alliance fixtures show that the pros on the whole don't score as well as the best amateurs. It seems a pity that clubs are so against allowing club pros to compete if that is what they would like to do.

 

[Voyager EMH]

The chap who is a pro and a member of our club, is allowed to play in the weekly weekday medals. Pro-shop credit as prizes must amuse him.
He was a very good junior and then valued member of 1st team, winner of county amateur scratch matchplay, did the pro course under our pro.
As well as the weekday medals he can take part in social golf, awaydays etc and play in pro stuff in the county and elsewhere.

 

[nickjdavis]

Pro's in amateur events?

How long before we hear them moaning about how they cant compete with Old Joe with his gammy leg who plays off 44 ?

 

[Dunesman]

The chap who is a pro and a member of our club, is allowed to play in the weekly weekday medals. Pro-shop credit as prizes must amuse him.
He was a very good junior and then valued member of 1st team, winner of county amateur scratch matchplay, did the pro course under our pro.
As well as the weekday medals he can take part in social golf, awaydays etc and play in pro stuff in the county and elsewhere.

Sounds like the thin of the wedge, and dangerously close to golf going the way of gentlemen and players.

 

[AussieKB]

In OZ, the Pro's play in midweek and Saturday comp's no problem, they can only win novelties, but the Majority never put their names down for them, just thankful that they can get a game.

On the plus side, us Amateurs get to play with the odd Pro and maybe pick up a free tip or two.

I used to play with one on a regular basis at another club in their mid week Comp until he moved, had known him since he was a junior, took him on his first interstate trip and then also International trip.

 

[Swango1980]

Question is, do most professionals want to play in amateur competitions? Given they only needed to get a handicap of 4 to become pro in first place, there is a good chance they wouldn't be better than the best amateur at club. Especially if they were at their peak when they turned pro, and now a worse player.

Might not be good for business if members see the pro struggling to break 80, or get anywhere near par. Many members might be put off having lessons. Maybe not good for the ego for the pro either.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Sounds like the thin of the wedge, and dangerously close to golf going the way of gentlemen and players.

To me it feels like a huge step towards a more reasonable approach regarding the distinction between amateurs and professionals.

 

[RichA]

To me it feels like a huge step towards a more reasonable approach regarding the distinction between amateurs and professionals.

Yep. Can't imagine too many club pros taking the £40 vouchers for their own shop, whereas many normal members would probably be thrilled to play a full competitive round with their pro. I would anyway.

 

[Voyager EMH]

Yep. Can't imagine too many club pros taking the £40 vouchers for their own shop, whereas many normal members would probably be thrilled to play a full competitive round with their pro. I would anyway.

Our two club pros don't play in club comps, but do play with members socially on special occasions. One of them does have a handicap.
The third pro was a member, qualified as a pro and left the club. Came back some years later as a member, but is still a pro. Plays in the weekday medals.

 

[Dunesman]

To me it feels like a huge step towards a more reasonable approach regarding the distinction between amateurs and professionals.

I agree. Not sure what the right tongue in cheek pic to have put was.

 

[Neilds]

The chap who is a pro and a member of our club, is allowed to play in the weekly weekday medals. Pro-shop credit as prizes must amuse him.
He was a very good junior and then valued member of 1st team, winner of county amateur scratch matchplay, did the pro course under our pro.
As well as the weekday medals he can take part in social golf, awaydays etc and play in pro stuff in the county and elsewhere.

I would argue that he is a member of the PGA and not a professional golfer - not that I believe there is such a distinction.

 

[Neilds]

One of our assistant pro's has just won a PGA Pro Am in Spain, scored 41 points in R1 - hope they review and cut him, what a bandit

 

[nickjdavis]

One of our assistant pro's has just won a PGA Pro Am in Spain, scored 41 points in R1 - hope they review and cut him, what a bandit

Maybe he needs to test himself in Australia where 41 points doesn't seem to put you on the leaderboard.

 

[AussieKB]

Maybe he needs to test himself in Australia where 41 points doesn't seem to put you on the leaderboard.

True....at my old club a Pro is playing off plus 7....he is playing in UAE at the moment and is only level par, so might have to put that card in to get a shot back.

 

[cliveb]

No amount of anecdotes about silly scores is relevant. There will always be days when somebody has an amazing round. And if the field is dominated by higher handicappers, the likelihood is that the person having his day in the sun will be one of them.

IF there is handicap manipulation, then there is a statistically meaningful way of detecting it.
Since the purpose of a handicap is to create a level playing field between all competitors, then the winners of competitions should be pretty much randomly distributed.
If a small number of people win competitions (or are placed high up the leaderboard) far more frequently than would be expected, that is the smoking gun that indicates there's something fishy about their handicaps. It's up to handicap committees to notice and do something about it.

 

[YandaB]

No amount of anecdotes about silly scores is relevant. There will always be days when somebody has an amazing round. And if the field is dominated by higher handicappers, the likelihood is that the person having his day in the sun will be one of them.

IF there is handicap manipulation, then there is a statistically meaningful way of detecting it.
Since the purpose of a handicap is to create a level playing field between all competitors, then the winners of competitions should be pretty much randomly distributed.
If a small number of people win competitions (or are placed high up the leaderboard) far more frequently than would be expected, that is the smoking gun that indicates there's something fishy about their handicaps. It's up to handicap committees to notice and do something about it.

Can that be formulated? If so, then surely that should then be part of the reports that are provided by WHS? Someone else mentioned AI etc. earlier, all good technologies that could/should be provided to assist committees (of varying levels of competence).

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

My 'game' and my scoring can both be pretty random. I have no issue with the fact that my HI can vary pretty randomly and seemingly independent against my feeling of how well or not I am playing.

I'm on 7.7 - I have three non-counters coming then a 2.2 and a 5.4. I feel I could possibly match my 5.4 but doubt very much I can match my 2.2 - it was always an outlier. My feeling is that I am better than 7.7 - but the good chance is that in 5 counting rounds time my HI will jump up a good bit. So be it. My HI is not strongly correlated with how I feel I am playing at any moment - my golf feelings good and bad are short term and short lived.

 

[Dunesman]

No amount of anecdotes about silly scores is relevant. There will always be days when somebody has an amazing round. And if the field is dominated by higher handicappers, the likelihood is that the person having his day in the sun will be one of them.

IF there is handicap manipulation, then there is a statistically meaningful way of detecting it.
Since the purpose of a handicap is to create a level playing field between all competitors, then the winners of competitions should be pretty much randomly distributed.
If a small number of people win competitions (or are placed high up the leaderboard) far more frequently than would be expected, that is the smoking gun that indicates there's something fishy about their handicaps. It's up to handicap committees to notice and do something about it.

I dont think any data analysis will find much of the abuse. It is too easy for them to hide in both the crowd, and the natural variation in golf scoring. That WHS isnt providing clear data on win frequency expectations in the first place then leaves us with nothing to benchmark actual scores against anyway.

 

[rulie]

I dont think any data analysis will find much of the abuse. It is too easy for them to hide in both the crowd, and the natural variation in golf scoring. That WHS isnt providing clear data on win frequency expectations in the first place then leaves us with nothing to benchmark actual scores against anyway.

Don't keep blaming someone or something else for a few players manipulating their handicaps. The Committee(s) can easily start with their own competitions and the suspected manipulators (identified by gut feel?). Also don't underestimate the power of statistical and probability analyses in identifying abnormalities.

 

[AussieKB]

OZ HS been here for years, have not heard of one person being done for handicap manipulation but everyone knows it is going on, except for the Blind Freddy, one of the main problems IMO is that the System is very easy to Manipulate.