Handicap manipulation - how to address

[AussieKB]

Played an Open recently where and old friend, now an ex pro, and has gone back to be Amateur was playing off a 10 handicap, to say I was stunned would be an understatement.

Watched him tee off down the middle of the fairway no problem at all, checked his score later and it was mostly bogeys, is waiting for a big tournament I wonder.

But how the hell do you go from scratch to 10 ? oh yes OZ HS or WHS.

 

[rulie]

Played an Open recently where and old friend, now an ex pro, and has gone back to be Amateur was playing off a 10 handicap, to say I was stunned would be an understatement.

Watched him tee off down the middle of the fairway no problem at all, checked his score later and it was mostly bogeys, is waiting for a big tournament I wonder.

But how the hell do you go from scratch to 10 ? oh yes OZ HS or WHS.

As a pro, did he really play to a "scratch" or was just assigned to him? Professional is a profession, and does not require a high skill at playing the game.

 

[AussieKB]

As a pro, did he really play to a "scratch" or was just assigned to him? Professional is a profession, and does not require a high skill at playing the game.

Yes he was off scratch for many years......member of a course near me, I even caddied for him a few times after he turned Pro, he and his missus stayed at my place when my course held Pro events.

 

[Colin L]

Played an Open recently where and old friend, now an ex pro, and has gone back to be Amateur was playing off a 10 handicap, to say I was stunned would be an understatement.

Watched him tee off down the middle of the fairway no problem at all, checked his score later and it was mostly bogeys, is waiting for a big tournament I wonder
But how the hell do you go from scratch to 10 ? oh yes OZ HS or WHS.

On the other hand, given that the only "evidence" is a round full of bogeys, perhaps his HI accurately reflects his current ability. The implication that he is guarding an over inflated handicap in order to win a later tournament is nothing more than unfounded and unpleasant speculation on your part. This is an "old friend" and you trash his character on an open forum?

There are clues in what you say like "old", "ex" "many years". Retired pros will decline just like the rest of us.

 

[AussieKB]

Hello.....I said ex Pro.....and he is an old friend......
what are you reading into that ?

Sorry but he is an ex Pro, maybe not a good one, but still played off scratch as an amateur.

And an old friend, and still is an old friend, known him for over 30 years, can't say a young friend.

But the point was he was on scratch and now on a 10 handicap, how many rounds under the old system ?

So ANYONE can do it under OZ or World HS, and that is a fact that you don't won't to acknowledge.

 

[KenL]

Ah ok.
All sorts of scores can happen in a scramble, but 59 seems like a perfectly reasonable winning score - a couple of strokes better than that wouldn't be unusual.

For 2 people. That’s quite some feat for non-cheats.

 

[Swango1980]

Hello.....I said ex Pro.....and he is an old friend......
what are you reading into that ?

Sorry but he is an ex Pro, maybe not a good one, but still played off scratch as an amateur.

And an old friend, and still is an old friend, known him for over 30 years, can't say a young friend.

But the point was he was on scratch and now on a 10 handicap, how many rounds under the old system ?

So ANYONE can do it under OZ or World HS, and that is a fact that you don't won't to acknowledge.

How long ago was he a pro, playing in pro tournaments?

 

[wjemather]

Hello.....I said ex Pro.....and he is an old friend......
what are you reading into that ?

Sorry but he is an ex Pro, maybe not a good one, but still played off scratch as an amateur.

And an old friend, and still is an old friend, known him for over 30 years, can't say a young friend.

But the point was he was on scratch and now on a 10 handicap, how many rounds under the old system ?

So ANYONE can do it under OZ or World HS, and that is a fact that you don't won't to acknowledge.

Sounds like he was scratch many, many, many years ago, not recently. So he hasn't gone from scratch to 10; he's gone from not having a handicap to having a handicap of 10. This would take the same 3 scores for initial handicap under the old system.

 

[AussieKB]

He is 1 month older then me......first started noticing that he was playing Amateur events about 3 years ago,
not sure what handicap.

He is fit, no injuries, and then in an Open last December we met again, where I watched tee off without a problem

So I have no idea what handicap they allocated him when he returned to AM ranks, but would find it hard to believe they gave him any more then 2-3.

I did tell him it was a joke him playing off 10 though.

But my point is that ANYONE can build a new handicap very easily, under OZ or World HS.

 

[Colin L]

Hello.....I said ex Pro.....and he is an old friend......
what are you reading into that ?

Sorry but he is an ex Pro, maybe not a good one, but still played off scratch as an amateur.

And an old friend, and still is an old friend, known him for over 30 years, can't say a young friend.

But the point was he was on scratch and now on a 10 handicap, how many rounds under the old system ?

So ANYONE can do it under OZ or World HS, and that is a fact that you don't won't to acknowledge.

I was reading from not into what you said that your friend had once been a scratch player but now had Handicap Index of 10; that you had carried out a peer review of his handicap on the basis of one score which demonstrated by a string of bogeys that he wasn't playing to scratch that day; and that you have concluded that he might be manipulating his handicap in order to win a biggie one of those days.

That was an unwarranted and damaging assumption to make about anyone on that "evidence" and all the greater discredit to you for making it of a friend. Do you not realise that such manipulation can only be achieved by falsifying scores and that you are suggesting that your friend could be capable of such dishonesty?

 

[wjemather]

He is 1 month older then me......first started noticing that he was playing Amateur events about 3 years ago,
not sure what handicap.

He is fit, no injuries, and then in an Open last December we met again, where I watched tee off without a problem

So I have no idea what handicap they allocated him when he returned to AM ranks, but would find it hard to believe they gave him any more then 2-3.

I did tell him it was a joke him playing off 10 though.

But my point is that ANYONE can build a new handicap very easily, under OZ or World HS.

That may be your point but your story is not evidence of it, as you "have no idea" what his initial handicap was or if his handicap has increased at all since then.

 

[AussieKB]

For the last time.....

My point is that ANYONE can build a new handicap very easily, under OZ or World HS.

ANYONE ANYONE ANYONE ANYONE

 

[clubchamp98]

Applying the same fallacious logic, you'd also have to say the rules of golf allows mulligans.

So you're confirming that WHS is working well and is an improvement on UHS, but trying to spin that into a negative.

Your the only one spinning anything.

An improvement jeez .

 

[doublebogey7]

I would say I am in the minority. But that doesnt mean not correct. The nature of the problem is that it slightly favours the majority, so they will be less inclined to notice in the first place, and have less motivation to object to a system that favours them. And a majority will not have strong feelings about it however good or bad WHS is. But again, that doesnt its incorrect for some of us to identify its weaknesses.

Of course I wont. If you get served a bad coffee, do you go to train as a barista so that the next time you are in the cafe you will go behind the counter and make your own.

We are entitled to point out the flaws in a system we are paying for. 'well do it yourself if you dont like it' is not an acceptable response.

As I have shown on more than one occasion the evidence from my club, is that is not the case. So unless yoou can show us proof otherwise, that is merely opinion, dressed up as fact.

The coffee analogy is a poor one, if you don't like Costa there are plenty of other alternatives without you having to make your own. You also have no way in, to directly effecting the operations of Costa, but you do with EG/R&A.

Of course you are entitled to express your opinions, not sure I said otherwise, I just don't see how repeating the same old argument incessantly is helping anyone least of all yourself.

 

[3offTheTee]

For 2 people. That’s quite some feat for non-cheats.

K

The score was at the Club where I am a member.

They won by 3 shots.

However, and whilst could still be a reason, one plays for The County Seniors who is off 1 and the other is next year’s Vice Captain off 4. They received 1 shot. I know them both personally and also who marked their card.

Excellent knock btw.

 

[Arthur Wedge]

59 for a 2 person scramble ?

All depends on the handicaps of the people

 

[D-S]

For the last 10 months I have been regularly checking the ‘score listing by day’ report in WHS for my club and when necessary cross referencing with the tee sheet and visitor payments.
The report shows who has submitted scores for handicapping either via the club ISV terminal or the EG App. The EG App shows the CDH number and club of both the player and their attester. This has thrown up a very large number of anomalies and issues.
These range from scores submitted by visitors with no record of attendance or payment, sometimes attested by members, sometimes by fellow visitors. Scores attested by members or visitors with the attester having no record of attendance or payment. GP scores submitted when the course have a has been closed. Individual scores submitted from visitors and members when they have played in Bowmakers, 4BB or team matches etc. etc.
We have about 2 or three issues most weeks.
This has become such a regular occurrence that the Handicap Committee see me as a bit of a pain for continually pointing out these transgressions and having to take action. The actions involve everything from reporting offenders to their club, to educating members and on a fair few occasions taking disciplinary action.
Just for an example, it was noticed this week that a member created a scorecard at 16.00, submitted the score at 20.00 and had it attested by his son the following day at 09.00 - as it was a roll up day we have no idea if he or his son played that day. On further checking both his last GP scorecards, in December, were created after 16.00 and followed the same pattern. He will be educated. It is difficult to know if this is manipulation, laziness or ignorance.
Because I keep on finding issues I keep on checking and have identified many, many hundreds of pounds in lost revenue, some of which have been recouped, some not.
I have often advised other clubs that this report it as Pandora’s box that is worth opening, some have done so, most haven’t as either they haven’t the time or inclination or often that ‘their members aren’t stupid as to to leave an electronic trail’ as to their ignorance, manipulation or theft of green fee income. Sadly in our case (a fairly respectable club) this is not the case.
There are ways of checking on people and the system is not bad for this but could be a lot better.
The level of ignorance and wilful disregard of the rules for whatever purpose is staggering though.

 

[AussieKB]

Am sure all these people were not utilizing the English HS to there own benefit.

 

[Swango1980]

For the last 10 months I have been regularly checking the ‘score listing by day’ report in WHS for my club and when necessary cross referencing with the tee sheet and visitor payments.
The report shows who has submitted scores for handicapping either via the club ISV terminal or the EG App. The EG App shows the CDH number and club of both the player and their attester. This has thrown up a very large number of anomalies and issues.
These range from scores submitted by visitors with no record of attendance or payment, sometimes attested by members, sometimes by fellow visitors. Scores attested by members or visitors with the attester having no record of attendance or payment. GP scores submitted when the course have a has been closed. Individual scores submitted from visitors and members when they have played in Bowmakers, 4BB or team matches etc. etc.
We have about 2 or three issues most weeks.
This has become such a regular occurrence that the Handicap Committee see me as a bit of a pain for continually pointing out these transgressions and having to take action. The actions involve everything from reporting offenders to their club, to educating members and on a fair few occasions taking disciplinary action.
Just for an example, it was noticed this week that a member created a scorecard at 16.00, submitted the score at 20.00 and had it attested by his son the following day at 09.00 - as it was a roll up day we have no idea if he or his son played that day. On further checking both his last GP scorecards, in December, were created after 16.00 and followed the same pattern. He will be educated. It is difficult to know if this is manipulation, laziness or ignorance.
Because I keep on finding issues I keep on checking and have identified many, many hundreds of pounds in lost revenue, some of which have been recouped, some not.
I have often advised other clubs that this report it as Pandora’s box that is worth opening, some have done so, most haven’t as either they haven’t the time or inclination or often that ‘their members aren’t stupid as to to leave an electronic trail’ as to their ignorance, manipulation or theft of green fee income. Sadly in our case (a fairly respectable club) this is not the case.
There are ways of checking on people and the system is not bad for this but could be a lot better.
The level of ignorance and wilful disregard of the rules for whatever purpose is staggering though.

On one of those points, I have known a few players who will play a round of golf and put their score on MyEG. However, they will be playing with someone who hasn't downloaded MyEG. So, they'll ask someone else who wasn't in their group (or maybe not even playing) to verify their score, and they do.

I've even been asked a couple of times to attest a score by someone who I didn't play with for the same reason. They say the score is legit, and I have actually no doubt it is legit and they are not trying to cheat the system (they may have been in group behind or in front). They are simply asking me for practical reasons. I have refused as I just can't allow myself to disobey the Rules out of principle, especially as an ex Handicap Sec. I tell them to submit their score on the box at the Club and let the handicap sec deal with it. But, I've no doubt this sort of thing goes on quite a lot. Mostly, legit scores are still being entered, but that won't always be the case. And, it makes more of a mockery of attesting a score.

I think it would be quite rare for clubs to know for sure if both the golfer and attester were actually playing. This wouldn't be flagged, so it seems a lot of work to check all scores, then compare that to players signed in on the booking system. A few spot checks at best, but still plenty of flexibility for golfers to get away with bending the rules.

 

[D-S]

On one of those points, I have known a few players who will play a round of golf and put their score on MyEG. However, they will be playing with someone who hasn't downloaded MyEG. So, they'll ask someone else who wasn't in their group (or maybe not even playing) to verify their score, and they do.

I've even been asked a couple of times to attest a score by someone who I didn't play with for the same reason. They say the score is legit, and I have actually no doubt it is legit and they are not trying to cheat the system (they may have been in group behind or in front). They are simply asking me for practical reasons. I have refused as I just can't allow myself to disobey the Rules out of principle, especially as an ex Handicap Sec. I tell them to submit their score on the box at the Club and let the handicap sec deal with it. But, I've no doubt this sort of thing goes on quite a lot. Mostly, legit scores are still being entered, but that won't always be the case. And, it makes more of a mockery of attesting a score.

I think it would be quite rare for clubs to know for sure if both the golfer and attester were actually playing. This wouldn't be flagged, so it seems a lot of work to check all scores, then compare that to players signed in on the booking system. A few spot checks at best, but still plenty of flexibility for golfers to get away with bending the rules.

I’m not talking about ‘bending the rules’. I am talking about multiple occasions of members playing with visitors and either or both submitting cards despite no green fee being paid. For some this was a regular occurrence, some an accidental one (oh I thought he had paid). We do not know how often people play without paying, we only know about the ones who have left an electronic footprint.
There are untold number of occasions of cards from wrong formats, this is not bending the rules.
Having someone who didn’t witness your round attesting in writing that they did is a biggish ‘bend’.
There are many excuses, some valid, for the breaches - ignorance etc. but many are, through admission, known/knowing.