Gender free golf

[jim8flog]

The women’s tees at my club are always in pristine condition while the men’s are a disgrace

Maybe because the men’s tees are used maybe 20 times as often

To quote one of my lady friends " ladies do not take divots"

 

[jim8flog]

. It is not unrealsitic to consider many clubs ladies sections as having few members capable for carrrying 180yds, let alone the 210 which is common to clubs like West Hill from their white tees) so you end up with a handful of players who could realistically navigate their way round - regardless of any handicap adjustment!


QUOTE]

The funny thing about that is that West Hill was specifically built as a championship course for ladies.

At least that was what I was told by one of the committee members back in 80s.

 

[ademac]

In your opening posts you lay the blame on 'golf', and it's need to move forward (as you see it).

Personally I see it somewhat differently as all the mechanisms are available so any blame lies with specific clubs and/or sections - which is a good thing because it means that the issue can be resolved locally (and therefore stands a chance of being resolved!)

However, the reality is that you need the volume and, on most layouts, competence to put the theory into practice.

Whilst for men it's fairly straightforward (because the volumes are there and the membership evolves to become those competent to play from the competition tees of any particular course) this doesn't translate easily to moving the ladies further back from time to time. It is not unrealsitic to consider many clubs ladies sections as having few members capable for carrrying 180yds, let alone the 210 which is common to clubs like West Hill from their white tees) so you end up with a handful of players who could realistically navigate their way round - regardless of any handicap adjustment!
Currently this resolves itself in practice with good lady members practicing off the tees of their choice (simple club decision in theory!) and competing on appropriate course set ups in elite (ish) Open events - whilst it would be better for them to be able to compete more over longer courses its really down to their own ladies sections (who understandably will look at the numbers...) there are other solutions (we have had a couple of ladies who turn up and play in the mens swindle off the mens comp tees for practice).

All of out tees are rated for men, including the 'red tees' and we play Q comps from all of them from time to time Blue, White, Yellow, Green and Red 74/73/71/69 & 67 In SSS terms. The ladies choose to play all their comps from the Reds - their choice not forced upon them.

Not looking to blame golf, just asking a question on a forum.
Just not sure ALL ladies get a fair crack at it as it stands.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Enlighten me?

I'm saying that the game of golf doesn't provide the restriction, as suggested in the opening posts. So it comes down to an individual club and/or their sections - which is a completely different thing.

Btw, picking up on a point in one of your posts, the handicap rules don't currently permit different players playing from different tees within the same Q competition. In practice you can get round this by setting up multiple competitions for handicapping and distributing prizes any way you wish.

If you're saying "women play from these tees, men from these" you are forcing the choice, even if "you" are the ladies committee. All this thread is suggesting is that people should play off the tee that suits their ability rather than their genitalia.

I've been a member of two clubs where the same competition was played from different tees. Granted, each was taken separately for subsequently adjusting handicaps but I think you're splitting hairs on that one! In fact, I think it's possible to use the scores from each to produce a single CSS adjustment?

 

[duncan mackie]

Not looking to blame golf, just asking a question on a forum.
Just not sure ALL ladies get a fair crack at it as it stands.

As Darren Williams has posted, it's not just ladies; exactly the same issues apply to seniors, and even juniors; or don't depending on the clubs and courses. In fact the principles can apply to any golfer where the underlying competition tees of a particular course don't provide a challenging course.

 

[ademac]

As Darren Williams has posted, it's not just ladies; exactly the same issues apply to seniors, and even juniors; or don't depending on the clubs and courses. In fact the principles can apply to any golfer where the underlying competition tees of a particular course don't provide a challenging course.

Yes I agree and it would be good and maybe more inviting if all clubs/courses addressed the issues so that all tee's are open to everybody etc.
You never know, it may even help to get more people interested in golf and signing up as members.

 

[duncan mackie]

Exactly. One of the issues, I think, for women's golf is the massive range of distances some hit it making it hard to pick one tee position that suits all. Those women could play easily off the whites but plenty of others would struggle to even reach the fairways from there.

I've frequently played with someone hitting driver on a par 3 when I've got a short iron or even a wedge. The handicap system can cope with people playing off different tees so why not both allow and encourage it?

If you're saying "women play from these tees, men from these" you are forcing the choice, even if "you" are the ladies committee. All this thread is suggesting is that people should play off the tee that suits their ability rather than their genitalia.

I've been a member of two clubs where the same competition was played from different tees. Granted, each was taken separately for subsequently adjusting handicaps but I think you're splitting hairs on that one! In fact, I think it's possible to use the scores from each to produce a single CSS adjustment?

I'm not trying to split hairs, In was picking up on your reference to the handicap system coping.

Use of SSS to equate tees for competition isn't equitable because of rounding, but you would probably consider that hair splitting. It is one ofnthe things that will be fairer using slope but for serious competition players will select the tee/rating combination that gives them the best chance of winning rather than being best suited to their capability and with any concept of a true challenge. So if looking at it from a competition perspective I don't see a huge benefit of providing the option. It's easy to prove the statistical basis underlying the bias by looking as players performances over time from different tees in similar competitions in similar conditions.

I had read into the original posting that the issue was playing, practicing and stretching - and I've always campaigned for players to play from appropriate tees (which in large society type events is usually miles away from the ones they would actually choose to play from!).

 

[FairwayDodger]

I think we have entirely different mindsets for handicap golf Duncan but I take your point!

 

[duncan mackie]

Exactly. One of the issues, I think, for women's golf is the massive range of distances some hit it making it hard to pick one tee position that suits all. Those women could play easily off the whites but plenty of others would struggle to even reach the fairways from there.

I've frequently played with someone hitting driver on a par 3 when I've got a short iron or even a wedge. The handicap system can cope with people playing off different tees so why not both allow and encourage it?

If you're saying "women play from these tees, men from these" you are forcing the choice, even if "you" are the ladies committee. All this thread is suggesting is that people should play off the tee that suits their ability rather than their genitalia.

I've been a member of two clubs where the same competition was played from different tees. Granted, each was taken separately for subsequently adjusting handicaps but I think you're splitting hairs on that one! In fact, I think it's possible to use the scores from each to produce a single CSS adjustment?

Yes I agree and it would be good and maybe more inviting if all clubs/courses addressed the issues so that all tee's are open to everybody etc.
You never know, it may even help to get more people interested in golf and signing up as members.

I can only answer for my current club and any member of any gender or age can play from any coloured tee box.

Then again we don't have a concept of juniors for competition purposes, if they have a CONGU handicap they can play any comp. Equally we run men's and ladies competitions concurrently so you can tee up in the monthly medal with a mixed, or single sex, game....

All these issues are entirely within clubs own choices and if people don't like what their clubs are doing they should vote with their money! (We did have a member leave the year after we permitted full junior competition access - but in fairness that was the year before supplementals and ESRs came in which basically resolved his underlying issues).

 

[ademac]

I understand it is down to the individual clubs but if it was more broadcast/compulsory it might just be more inviting to more women to join golf clubs?
The knock on effects could be huge.
I know that if my wife was to take up golf it would be much more likely that I would play more golf and we would both be members at a club together.
Gender equality is very relevant at the moment and I think every walk of life needs to address it, golf included.

 

[duncan mackie]

Exactly. One of the issues, I think, for women's golf is the massive range of distances some hit it making it hard to pick one tee position that suits all. Those women could play easily off the whites but plenty of others would struggle to even reach the fairways from there.

I've frequently played with someone hitting driver on a par 3 when I've got a short iron or even a wedge. The handicap system can cope with people playing off different tees so why not both allow and encourage it?

If you're saying "women play from these tees, men from these" you are forcing the choice, even if "you" are the ladies committee. All this thread is suggesting is that people should play off the tee that suits their ability rather than their genitalia.

I've been a member of two clubs where the same competition was played from different tees. Granted, each was taken separately for subsequently adjusting handicaps but I think you're splitting hairs on that one! In fact, I think it's possible to use the scores from each to produce a single CSS adjustment?

I understand it is down to the individual clubs but if it was more broadcast/compulsory it might just be more inviting to more women to join golf clubs?
The knock on effects could be huge.
I know that if my wife was to take up golf it would be much more likely that I would play more golf and we would both be members at a club together.
Gender equality is very relevant at the moment and I think every walk of life needs to address it, golf included.

Whilst there may be gender equality aspects in some elements this is not a gender equality issue Per se

 

[ademac]

Whilst there may be gender equality aspects in some elements this is not a gender equality issue Per se

In your opinion.

 

[duncan mackie]

In your opinion.

Based on my understanding of the question you posed.

You can gender equalise golf at a stroke - but every time it's been proposed the ladies have been unequivocally against.

There's no fundamental reason why there shouldn't be one rating and one handicap basis - the end. Based on those courses and tees that are rated for both you would simply add around 5 or 6 to current ladies handicaps and you have gender equality. That simple.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

We have a supper club every Wednesday in differing formats and sometimes playing off the reds (either front or back) is drawn out. As others have said it's a different course completely and actually very difficult to club properly on some holes.

At the end of the day, we have to find a way of making golf inclusive and to encourage new golfers to try the game and stick with it. If that means they can access a course and play off the reds without prejudice or discrimination then why not. I think we need to simply get away from calling tees mens and womens, especially on signage and scorecards. That would be a starting point

 

[ademac]

We have a supper club every Wednesday in differing formats and sometimes playing off the reds (either front or back) is drawn out. As others have said it's a different course completely and actually very difficult to club properly on some holes.

At the end of the day, we have to find a way of making golf inclusive and to encourage new golfers to try the game and stick with it. If that means they can access a course and play off the reds without prejudice or discrimination then why not. I think we need to simply get away from calling tees mens and womens, especially on signage and scorecards. That would be a starting point

Agree with that totally.

 

[duncan mackie]

.... I think we need to simply get away from calling tees mens and womens, especially on signage and scorecards. That would be a starting point

Whilst it may seem like I'm jumping sides in the wider argument (I'm not) for a huge proportion of courses your starting point must be access to the tees - long before this.

Look at the huge number of posts and threads about accessing 'whites'; let alone a society turning up West Hill (they have already been mentioned) expecting to be able to play from the reds

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Whilst it may seem like I'm jumping sides in the wider argument (I'm not) for a huge proportion of courses your starting point must be access to the tees - long before this.

Look at the huge number of posts and threads about accessing 'whites'; let alone a society turning up West Hill (they have already been mentioned) expecting to be able to play from the reds

My club already has an open tee policy for members and guests. You could turn up, pay your green fee and play white or yellow. In theory that should include reds too but there is still that "stigma" of it being the ladies tee. There are clubs out there that are relaxed about tees and others that are totally OCD about which ones can be used especially by guests. Not sure how you break down the barriers

 

[fundy]

To quote one of my lady friends " ladies do not take divots"

I was really not popular at a previous club where we played a fun round off the reds, I hit iron off most tees and soon realised there was no sand and seed mix on any of the tee boxes. First time any of them had been marked and the ladies i was with werent impressed!

 

[Lord Tyrion]

My club already has an open tee policy for members and guests. You could turn up, pay your green fee and play white or yellow. In theory that should include reds too but there is still that "stigma" of it being the ladies tee. There are clubs out there that are relaxed about tees and others that are totally OCD about which ones can be used especially by guests. Not sure how you break down the barriers

Change the colour of the tee boxes. The current ones are so ingrained that prejudices are built in. Get the paint pots out and change the tee box colours from the current ones.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Change the colour of the tee boxes. The current ones are so ingrained that prejudices are built in. Get the paint pots out and change the tee box colours from the current ones.

Interesting idea. I know The Grove has something like Gold Silver and Bronze (or did).