Full or 3/4

[Fore!!!]

Hi guys (and gals)
New on here and looking for opinions on weather people play 3/4 handicap or full on a course with the following stipulations...
Forward tees (Winter tees)
Placing through the green (anywhere on course)
Bunkers GUR
No first cut of rough

This is what we have on our course at the moment and a heated discussion is on going.....

 

[Grant85]

Hi guys (and gals)
New on here and looking for opinions on weather people play 3/4 handicap or full on a course with the following stipulations...
Forward tees (Winter tees)
Placing through the green (anywhere on course)
Bunkers GUR
No first cut of rough

This is what we have on our course at the moment and a heated discussion is on going.....

Personally would say this should def be 3/4.

Groups I have played with have not made this adjustment, but in my view it massively favours the higher handicaps as the course has basically no teeth. The things that will intimidate or hamper greatly the higher handicaps are basically out of play - length, bunkers, rough etc. Not to mention greens generally being slow or even temp greens that are a leveller.

 

[patricks148]

I'm a winter member at another club who run NQ comps though the winter these are all on 3/4, my club does't have anything over winter, but the Sunday roll up i used to play in was 3/4 for yellows and half if it was winter greens. seemed fair

 

[Swango1980]

We play qualifiers through the winter, full handicap. The course is definitely easier for the higher handicappers. However, in all fairness, it is also easier for the low handicappers. After all, a lot of the low handicappers are effectively pitching or chipping onto some greens in regulation, which they generally do make a good job off.

When the weather has been very wet or frosty, and we need to go to all temporary greens (and therefore non-qualifier), perhaps putting becomes a lottery on the bumpy surface, which may eliminate some of the strengths of lower handicappers and doesn't have such a negative impact on a lot of higher handicappers who may not be the best putters / chippers anyway.

So, in genera, I've not seen a massive impact over winter in higher handicappers doing better in relation to lower handicappers. However, maybe there is a small shift towards higher handicappers when conditions are so bad that the short game becomes a lottery, but I've not done a detailed analysis.

Personally, I'm one of the lower handicappers in the field, but I'm not honestly bothered even if higher handicappers do fair better over winter. Good on them, is what I say. And, if we get qualifiers in, then their good scores will ultimately be accounted for anyway. All I want is to look forward to a game of golf at the weekend, keep my swing going, and hopefully post the odd decent score. If it ends up being a winning score, fantastic, if not then no big deal. Congrats to the winner and look forward to the next weekend.I never see why handicaps need to be reduced to 75%. What I mean by that is, why 75% and not 90%, 70%, 60%, etc. If CONGU had done some detailed research to say 75% was shown to be fairer, then OK (although if you are playing on a measured course with an SSS, it is difficult to justify NOT playing with full handicap I think). But to me it is just an arbitrary number to pacify some of the lower handicappers?

 

[duncan mackie]

Hi guys (and gals)
New on here and looking for opinions on weather people play 3/4 handicap or full on a course with the following stipulations...
Forward tees (Winter tees)
Placing through the green (anywhere on course)
Bunkers GUR
No first cut of rough

This is what we have on our course at the moment and a heated discussion is on going.....

I agree with SWANGO there is no basis to disproportionately handicap the higher handicap players.

The rounds aren't handicap qualifying so there is no need to do anything at all regarding the reduced course length - it's exactly the same as (currently) just heading off to play a shorter course.

I always find it fascinating to see that everytime any attempt to move away from established principles the proposals favour the lower handicap players - every single time!

 

[jim8flog]

From the lost of course conditions you are obviously playing non qualifiers so really it is up to the club.

My own view is that it should be full handicap in Divisions* so it is the about the same for every player competing against players of a similar handicap.

* Our divisions are up to 10, 11-16 and 17 and over for club comps
up to 15, 16-20 and 21 and above in seniors
this is mainly done to get, roughly, the same number in each division.

 

[duncan mackie]

From the lost of course conditions you are obviously playing non qualifiers so really it is up to the club.

My own view is that it should be full handicap in Divisions* so it is the about the same for every player competing against players of a similar handicap.

* Our divisions are up to 10, 11-16 and 17 and over for club comps
up to 15, 16-20 and 21 and above in seniors
this is mainly done to get, roughly, the same number in each division.

This is a sensible solution to the perceived issue. I'm not in favour of divisions on Q course set ups but can see huge merit in such circumstances

 

[Backache]

I agree with SWANGO there is no basis to disproportionately handicap the higher handicap players.

The rounds aren't handicap qualifying so there is no need to do anything at all regarding the reduced course length - it's exactly the same as (currently) just heading off to play a shorter course.

I always find it fascinating to see that everytime any attempt to move away from established principles the proposals favour the lower handicap players - every single time!

An alternative view is htat handicaps have been established on a longer course and part of the reason why we are moving to a new handicapping system is a recognition that CONGU style handicaps aren't very portable between courses and handicaps established on longer tougher courses will tend to be unduly high as the handicap gets higher compared with shorter easier courses and this is a rough and ready way of rectifying it.
To be honest winter golf is a bit rough and ready particularly the greens and when I can play I just go out and enjoy it and pretty much ignore the score and it wouldn't bother me one way or the other.

 

[patricks148]

I agree with SWANGO there is no basis to disproportionately handicap the higher handicap players.

The rounds aren't handicap qualifying so there is no need to do anything at all regarding the reduced course length - it's exactly the same as (currently) just heading off to play a shorter course.

I always find it fascinating to see that everytime any attempt to move away from established principles the proposals favour the lower handicap players - every single time!

the rsults at ND last year don't really bare that out. they were 3/4 and every week it was a mid teen handicap that won the stablefords, some of the scores were very low you had to score 45 plus to get in the top 3. a lot of the low guys stopped entering after Christmas.. if it had been full allowance i shudder to think what the scores would have been

 

[jim8flog]

This is a sensible solution to the perceived issue. I'm not in favour of divisions on Q course set ups but can see huge merit in such circumstances

I would view from the results at our club (particularly in Stableford comps ) that not having divisions puts low handicap players at a serious disadvantage. The winning score in Division 3 (often around 44 points) means that I would have to shoot level or better to stand a chance, not saying that it cannot be done but it would be rare (just 3 times for me in the last 20+ years).

 

[duncan mackie]

the rsults at ND last year don't really bare that out. they were 3/4 and every week it was a mid teen handicap that won the stablefords, some of the scores were very low you had to score 45 plus to get in the top 3. a lot of the low guys stopped entering after Christmas.. if it had been full allowance i shudder to think what the scores would have been

These are played to main greens?

 

[patricks148]

These are played to main greens?

yes, off the medal tee its 6765, off the winter course i'd be suprised if it was 6100 at most

 

[duncan mackie]

yes, off the medal tee its 6765, off the winter course i'd be suprised if it was 6100 at most

We are similar, but play all year as Q rounds. There's a 4 shot difference in rating. Whilst it certainly does bring some of the shorter hitters into play the complete lack of roll anywhere on the course means that the 6100 plays like the normal summer 6800 for most higher handicaps - it's the cat 1 boys who carry their distances who find it shorter, and they also benefit in being able to drop and stop from/to anywhere.
As we've discussed many times on here the real issue is that not all 18 handicappers have the same underlying game (far more variation than scr golfers) and non penal rough plus preferred lies plus shorter course can be a massive green light to many players (I used to be one!).

 

[patricks148]

We are similar, but play all year as Q rounds. There's a 4 shot difference in rating. Whilst it certainly does bring some of the shorter hitters into play the complete lack of roll anywhere on the course means that the 6100 plays like the normal summer 6800 for most higher handicaps - it's the cat 1 boys who carry their distances who find it shorter, and they also benefit in being able to drop and stop from/to anywhere.
As we've discussed many times on here the real issue is that not all 18 handicappers have the same underlying game (far more variation than scr golfers) and non penal rough plus preferred lies plus shorter course can be a massive green light to many players (I used to be one!).

the way i see it over winter is there is no rough, so no premium on hiiting the fairway, we are already 60 yards closer to those FB are no longer in play, greens are slow and soft so anyone can stop a ball on the green, little of no breaks on putts due to the slowness. of course all these things help lower handicaps, but the lack of them also help higher handicaps and with lots of shots of course its an advantage..

9th at ND is par 5 but in winter i'd be supprise if its more than 400 yards, SI10 so I'm not getting a shot but its an easy 4 for most of the field and easier still if you are getting a shot. all the par 3's are no longer than 150 yards and all mid teen SI, some of the bunkers are not in play due to winter maintainence so a pretty easy 3, even better when you are getting a shot, when in summer is was 180 shot over bunkers.

 

[rulefan]

A lot of myths would be eliminated if clubs had their winter course rated and sloped.

 

[Backache]

A lot of myths would be eliminated if clubs had their winter course rated and sloped.

Do you think that is realistic? On my own course in winter things are moved around a lot according to prevailing conditions and the day to day variation is far more than in the summer.

 

[patricks148]

A lot of myths would be eliminated if clubs had their winter course rated and sloped.

how would that help no would know what they were playing off

 

[SGC001]

Hi guys (and gals)
New on here and looking for opinions on weather people play 3/4 handicap or full on a course with the following stipulations...
Forward tees (Winter tees)
Placing through the green (anywhere on course)
Bunkers GUR
No first cut of rough

This is what we have on our course at the moment and a heated discussion is on going.....

My old club we'd do 3/4 mats to summer greens
1/2 mats to temps (bucket holes)

Results were studied across handicap bands relative to number of players in each band and it pretty much worked out bang on both in terms of winning scores and all handicap ranges achieving success in comps.

Small club so only 2 divisions which meant trying to cater for large handicap ranges in each band.

The advantage of shortened course (20%), placing, trouble not been in play off forward tees, lottery around the greens due to winter parkland conditions and bucket holes when on temps have more effect on scores than most are willing to admit.

A full seasons results were analysed from the previous winter and a the results of the season when inputted.

The stats were important to have as despite it working out as fair, those with higher handicaps felt hard done by because the unfair advantage they had brought by winter conditions had been eroded. The question we asked was if we're using a handicap system shouldn't it be relatively fair.

Edit what I'm suggesting is analyse your clubs results from the previous season or this season if u dont have them and choose an appropriate option for your clubs differing conditions.

 

[duncan mackie]

the way i see it over winter is there is no rough, so no premium on hiiting the fairway, we are already 60 yards closer to those FB are no longer in play, greens are slow and soft so anyone can stop a ball on the green, little of no breaks on putts due to the slowness. of course all these things help lower handicaps, but the lack of them also help higher handicaps and with lots of shots of course its an advantage..

9th at ND is par 5 but in winter i'd be supprise if its more than 400 yards, SI10 so I'm not getting a shot but its an easy 4 for most of the field and easier still if you are getting a shot. all the par 3's are no longer than 150 yards and all mid teen SI, some of the bunkers are not in play due to winter maintainence so a pretty easy 3, even better when you are getting a shot, when in summer is was 180 shot over bunkers.

Your winter course is certainly a significant differential - massively relative to us.
Rough is easier to play from in summer (it's dry, not muddy and the same length...), we always have bunkers in play (well they are as likely to be out for maintenance mid summer as winter) and we basically use forward rated tees to main greens. Greens are a similar speed but softer and less true.
Many parkland courses I have played over the years are similar ie they play very similar.

 

[jim8flog]

A lot of myths would be eliminated if clubs had their winter course rated and sloped.

Our winter tees course has the same SSS as the yellow tees summer course. The results are not a lot different.

My own experience from playing regularly with 20+ handicaps is that length is not the major issue as to why they have higher handicaps.