EU Referendum

[SocketRocket]

I think you missed the extreme point to which I was retorting in like language.

Politicians and very well off people make me sick when they tell others that everything is OK, looking out from their ivory towers on the great unwashed and suggesting any opinion counter to their own is one of ignorance.

The clue was in the 'and to retort' bit. I am sure you will want to have a go at SocketRocket now lest you be seen as a hypocrite.

OK, show me some proof that long term immigration makes a worthwhile net financial benefit to the exchequer.

here is a link to a fairly well balanced report on the subject : https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/

 

[Foxholer]

OK, show me some proof that long term immigration makes a worthwhile net financial benefit to the exchequer.

here is a link to a fairly well balanced report on the subject : https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/

It's not for the 'Remain-ers' to show the positive! It's the Leave-ers who should need to 'prove' their case - though simply bleating on about it is actually a pretty effective strategy!

That report shows that any +/- benefit/cost of EU migration is pretty negligible (it's tiny compared with GDP). It's the Non-EU migration that is the more significant cost - and that is actually 'controlled' and won't change if UK leaves the EU!

And remember that membership of EFTA (as proposed by Goer/the Leave campaign) and/or EEA will not change the ability for EU citizens to move freely to UK!! Here's an article chosen pretty much at random that explains http://leonduveen.mycouncillor.org.uk/2013/10/22/is-joining-efta-a-sensible-alternative/ I don't actually agree fully with his last paragraph though - the 'lack of understanding' is, imo, what the effect of leaving the EU (and joining EFTA) would be - nothing as far as immigration is concerned!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It's not for the 'Remain-ers' to show the positive! It's the Leave-ers who should need to 'prove' their case - though simply bleating on about it is actually a pretty effective strategy!

That report shows that any +/- benefit/cost of EU migration is pretty negligible (it's tiny compared with GDP). It's the Non-EU migration that is the more significant cost - and that is actually 'controlled' and won't change if UK leaves the EU!

And remember that membership of EFTA (as proposed by Goer/the Leave campaign) and/or EEA will not change the ability for EU citizens to move freely to UK!! Here's an article chosen pretty much at random that explains http://leonduveen.mycouncillor.org.uk/2013/10/22/is-joining-efta-a-sensible-alternative/ I don't actually agree fully with his last paragraph though - the 'lack of understanding' is, imo, what the effect of leaving the EU (and joining EFTA) would be - nothing as far as immigration is concerned!

All fine and good that piece you link to - but of course as the UK is a particularly important trading partner to most European countries we will be able to negotiate our own conditions of membership of EFTA/EEA in respect of free movement. What currently exist for EFTA/EEA countries and access to the single market is not necessarily what the UK will have to agree to - as UK is in a very strong position to negotiate our own very favourable terms (I think that's how the argument goes)

 

[Foxholer]

All fine and good that piece you link to - but of course as the UK is a particularly important trading partner to most European countries we will be able to negotiate our own conditions of membership of EFTA/EEA in respect of free movement. What currently exist for EFTA/EEA countries and access to the single market is not necessarily what the UK will have to agree to - as UK is in a very strong position to negotiate our own very favourable terms (I think that's how the argument goes)

The Free Movement is such an important - fundamental even - principle to these organisations, that I don't believe that will be possible!

Btw. There's actually an interesting Select Committee 'interrogation' (with a 'hostile' Chairman!) of Cameron happening right now! Cameron is handling it rather well imo.!

 

[Hobbit]

It's not for the 'Remain-ers' to show the positive! It's the Leave-ers who should need to 'prove' their case - though simply bleating on about it is actually a pretty effective strategy!

Surely both sides want to win votes from each camp, and both sides need to prove the case. If there's a wavering Leaver out there the Remainers will need to "show the positive."

 

[SocketRocket]

The Free Movement is such an important - fundamental even - principle to these organisations, that I don't believe that will be possible!

Btw. There's actually an interesting Select Committee 'interrogation' (with a 'hostile' Chairman!) of Cameron happening right now! Cameron is handling it rather well imo.!

Many countries trade with the EU under free trade agreements without the stipulation of the free movement of labour. There is no doubt in my mind due to the importance of the purchasing power of the UK that a free trade agreement will be negotiated that does not include the FMOL.

 

[SocketRocket]

It's not for the 'Remain-ers' to show the positive! It's the Leave-ers who should need to 'prove' their case - though simply bleating on about it is actually a pretty effective strategy!

That report shows that any +/- benefit/cost of EU migration is pretty negligible (it's tiny compared with GDP). It's the Non-EU migration that is the more significant cost - and that is actually 'controlled' and won't change if UK leaves the EU!

And remember that membership of EFTA (as proposed by Goer/the Leave campaign) and/or EEA will not change the ability for EU citizens to move freely to UK!! Here's an article chosen pretty much at random that explains http://leonduveen.mycouncillor.org.uk/2013/10/22/is-joining-efta-a-sensible-alternative/ I don't actually agree fully with his last paragraph though - the 'lack of understanding' is, imo, what the effect of leaving the EU (and joining EFTA) would be - nothing as far as immigration is concerned!

And the cost is significant only because the Non EU immigrants have been here longer and as such cost more, just like the EU ones will in time. Using high levels of immigration as a stop gap for an ageing population is counter productive and will only make the situation worse in the longer term.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Surely both sides want to win votes from each camp, and both sides need to prove the case. If there's a wavering Leaver out there the Remainers will need to "show the positive."

Na, everyone already knows how they're going to vote and have done for weeks. Lets get on with it!!

 

[Foxholer]

Many countries trade with the EU under free trade agreements without the stipulation of the free movement of labour. There is no doubt in my mind due to the importance of the purchasing power of the UK that a free trade agreement will be negotiated that does not include the FMOL.

So are you agreeing the Gove was talking absolute tosh and hadn't a clue what he was committing to when he stated that UK would join EFTA?

 

[Foxholer]

Surely both sides want to win votes from each camp, and both sides need to prove the case. If there's a wavering Leaver out there the Remainers will need to "show the positive."

I believe it's actually more difficult to present arguments a 'no change' as opposed to a 'let's change' one! The disadvantages of the current setup are much more visible than the advantages - which only become apparent AFTER the 'change' happens!

So the 'it's all because of immigrants' argument is easy to promote, whereas the truth may well be that 'there are too many non-EU family members being allowed to enter UK'!

To me, Gove has proven himself to be clueless about what the REAL solution is and BoJo is just an opportunistic buffoon! Heaven help the country if either of them become PM - but there's small evidence of real opposition! Cameron actually performed extremely well in the Select Committee questioning today!

And the cost is significant only because the Non EU immigrants have been here longer and as such cost more, just like the EU ones will in time. Using high levels of immigration as a stop gap for an ageing population is counter productive and will only make the situation worse in the longer term.

Complete wrong! Stop being obsessed with the aging immigrants and become more concerned with those they are allowed to bring in to create a 'family life'!

It's because there's a bleeding sight more of them - and they are Benefit collectors as opposed to Taxation providers!

 

[SocketRocket]

So are you agreeing the Gove was talking absolute tosh and hadn't a clue what he was committing to when he stated that UK would join EFTA?

Gove? Where did you get that from. I am talking about the raft of countries that currently have free trade agreements with the EU but do not have free movement of labour.

 

[SocketRocket]

Complete wrong! Stop being obsessed with the aging immigrants and become more concerned with those they are allowed to bring in to create a 'family life'!

It's because there's a bleeding sight more of them - and they are Benefit collectors as opposed to Taxation providers!

You dont seem to be reading my posts, or if you are you are not digesting the content but, rather applying your prejudice and then going off half cocked.

I have explained that what we need is a points based immigration system that considers all applicants where ever they come from on a level playing field and matched against the skills and numbers this country decides it needs.

Regarding whether they are people who are using the 'Right to a family life' , poached health workers, Roma Gypsies, German Engineers, Serbian taxidermists, Pakistani cooks or Polish Plumbers they all need to be considered by the UK's requirements and that is something a self determining UK will be able to decide.

 

[Old Skier]

Strange old world, it seems it's ok for Scotland to become Independant if the country votes out and then Scotland wants to join the EU to lose most of its independence and gain a failing currency.

The nationalists have a very strange idea of independence.

 

[SocketRocket]

Strange old world, it seems it's ok for Scotland to become Independant if the country votes out and then Scotland wants to join the EU to lose most of its independence and gain a failing currency.

The nationalists have a very strange idea of independence.

I guess it's deciding what security blanket they want to bail out their economy.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You dont seem to be reading my posts, or if you are you are not digesting the content but, rather applying your prejudice and then going off half cocked.

I have explained that what we need is a points based immigration system that considers all applicants where ever they come from on a level playing field and matched against the skills and numbers this country decides it needs.

Regarding whether they are people who are using the 'Right to a family life' , poached health workers, Roma Gypsies, German Engineers, Serbian taxidermists, Pakistani cooks or Polish Plumbers they all need to be considered by the UK's requirements and that is something a self determining UK will be able to decide.

Points don't fruit-pickers make.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378044/Farmers-We-must-have-more-migrants

 

[SocketRocket]

Points don't fruit-pickers make.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/378044/Farmers-We-must-have-more-migrants

Of course they do. If we have a requirement for say 10,000 fruit pickers then people can apply for work visas to fill that quota. And; if we have enough lazy workshy on benefits that can pick fruit then insist they do these jobs or get nothing.

 

[MegaSteve]

Having to pay the minimum wage, I'd have thought, was a greater concern for agriculture...

 

[FairwayDodger]

I guess it's deciding what security blanket they want to bail out their economy.

You really don't understand what's going on in Scottish politics. No fault in that, why would you after all? But posting stupid, inflammatory stuff like that doesn't help.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Of course they do. If we have a requirement for say 10,000 fruit pickers then people can apply for work visas to fill that quota. And; if we have enough lazy workshy on benefits that can pick fruit then insist they do these jobs or get nothing.

How many points do you need to be qualified to pick fruit? And so we get back to the workshy. Unless Leave have plans for getting the workshy back into work then we're going to have to keep bringing in 10s of thousands of low-skilled labour every year on a nil points basis.

Actually Leave don't really have plans for anything - they have a very long wish-list - and have decided that it isn't 'worth their while' putting together an equivalent document to that the government produced for us all.

So is that it? - all we are going to get from Leave for the next two months is assertion, supposition and indignant complaining about collusion between parties with 'vested interests' in the UK staying in the EU.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You really don't understand what's going on in Scottish politics. No fault in that, why would you after all? But posting stupid, inflammatory stuff like that doesn't help.

Watched Scotland 2016 last night. Interesting discussion between the political party advisers - and their views on what the most important matters are for the voting public in Scotland - #1 is a second referendum (for or against). And also the (brief) mention the ex-Labour party adviser made about how the many voters in Scotland would view a BoJo PM in Westminster. If we thought that Cameron and Osborne weren't popular, well ...