EU Referendum

[Old Skier]

For those who view science as being irrelevant to their EU In/Out considerations this is a short and easy read

https://uktostay.eu/2016/03/20/science/

And please don't just respond by saying 'well they would say that' - rather - if Brexiteers could counter the points made and risks raised then that would help us all.

And BTW - making statements of risk is not scaremongering. When you have a decision to make you balance risk and benefit, and you have to understand both before being able to balance them

Perhaps if it came from an independent source it might bear more weight

 

[Hobbit]

For those who view science as being irrelevant to their EU In/Out considerations this is a short and easy read

https://uktostay.eu/2016/03/20/science/

And please don't just respond by saying 'well they would say that' - rather - if Brexiteers could counter the points made and risks raised then that would help us all.

And BTW - making statements of risk is not scaremongering. When you have a decision to make you balance risk and benefit, and you have to understand both before being able to balance them

I don't think it "would help us all," as it seems pretty clear that all the Remainers have their opinions cast in concrete just as many of the Brexiters have theirs.

But it is interesting to look at some of the stuff being put out there, and to dig a little laterally. For example, if you look at all the scientific work done pre-1970 by foreign scientists in Oxford & Cambridge. And then if you look at the different scientific research establishments that are in non-EU countries...

I don't doubt for one minute there would be a host of scientific opportunities lost if we pulled out of the EU. It would be naïve to suggest anything different. Equally, where is the ambition in staying other than same old same old. It's safe, without a doubt, but its 'grey' and lacks ambition.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Perhaps if it came from an independent source it might bear more weight

Deflect. No answer. What sort of independent scientific community are you thinking of? Where is the independent scientific community supporting Brexit? So that I can ignore what they say as they are clearly not independent as they support Brexit. So anything that anyone in the Brexit campaign or in support of the Brexit campaign says - I can ignore as it isn't independent. Is that how it works?

A large body of scientists get together to put together their case for and identify the risks against - and you ignore what they say on the grounds that they are not (by opposing Brexit) independent - that is a ludicrous position to take.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I don't think it "would help us all," as it seems pretty clear that all the Remainers have their opinions cast in concrete just as many of the Brexiters have theirs.

But it is interesting to look at some of the stuff being put out there, and to dig a little laterally. For example, if you look at all the scientific work done pre-1970 by foreign scientists in Oxford & Cambridge. And then if you look at the different scientific research establishments that are in non-EU countries...

I don't doubt for one minute there would be a host of scientific opportunities lost if we pulled out of the EU. It would be naïve to suggest anything different. Equally, where is the ambition in staying other than same old same old. It's safe, without a doubt, but its 'grey' and lacks ambition.

But pre-1970 was exactly that. The world and the scientific community has moved on - massively. 50yrs of water have flowed under the bridge - and the last 50yrs of scientific collaboration and discovery have seen astonishing advances. And we want to go our own way.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Sorry are they suggesting our scientists won't be able to work on ideas or bring new ideas to the table ?

Of all the things to worry about in or out - science is the least of my worries personally because whether we stay in or leave it won't stop or scientists being creative , it won't stop then having ideas etc etc.

 

[Hobbit]

But pre-1970 was exactly that. The world and the scientific community has moved on - massively. 50yrs of water have flowed under the bridge - and the last 50yrs of scientific collaboration and discovery have seen astonishing advances. And we want to go our own way.

Which is why I said it wouldn't help. You have a closed mind to anything that doesn't fit your opinion. You can't see beyond the sea shore to the far horizon, no ambition.

 

[Old Skier]

Deflect. No answer. What sort of independent scientific community are you thinking of? Where is the independent scientific community supporting Brexit? So that I can ignore what they say as they are clearly not independent as they support Brexit. So anything that anyone in the Brexit campaign or in support of the Brexit campaign says - I can ignore as it isn't independent. Is that how it works?

A large body of scientists get together to put together their case for and identify the risks against - and you ignore what they say on the grounds that they are not (by opposing Brexit) independent - that is a ludicrous position to take.

And there is the problem, you produce some BritIn propergander and I chuck up some exit rubbish so nobody's happy.

I do however find it very strange as our universities provide some of the best research facilities for many years, surprisingly even before the Common Market and the EU in its new expensive format.

Why would anyone think that all this research is going to cease the day after we leave the EU. Those are the answers I would like to hear.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And there is the problem, you produce some BritIn propergander and I chuck up some exit rubbish so nobody's happy.

I do however find it very strange as our universities provide some of the best research facilities for many years, surprisingly even before the Common Market and the EU in its new expensive format.

Why would anyone think that all this research is going to cease the day after we leave the EU. Those are the answers I would like to hear.

Could someone who says this can be ignored please read each of the three risks stated and provide a mitigation and/or contingency for each. There are only three risks so it should be easy. Sounds like Brexit is willing to Accept these risks - it would be useful to know how they would Mitigate the risk to reduce the impact of the risk were it to come to pass - and if that's deemed unnecessary how about a Contingency just in case things go wrong.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And there is the problem, you produce some BritIn propergander and I chuck up some exit rubbish so nobody's happy.

I do however find it very strange as our universities provide some of the best research facilities for many years, surprisingly even before the Common Market and the EU in its new expensive format.

Why would anyone think that all this research is going to cease the day after we leave the EU. Those are the answers I would like to hear.

For this you have to provide evidence from the Universities that tell us that it won't cease (which of course it won't - except maybe it will if EU funding is immediately pulled), and then that tells us the impact leaving will have. But I am sensing that were that evidence provided and were it not to fit the Brexit view it would be ignored as not being independent.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Could someone who says this can be ignored please read each of the three risks stated and provide a mitigation and/or contingency for each. There are only three risks so it should be easy. Sounds like Brexit is willing to Accept these risks - it would be useful to know how they would Mitigate the risk to reduce the impact of the risk were it to come to pass - and if that's deemed unnecessary how about a Contingency just in case things go wrong.

I believe you are overstating how much impact this all has in the big picture

I believe you have latched onto something because it's something that sticks firmly with the in camp

Am I able to respond to the questions - no because I'm not a scientist - are you ? Or are you taking everything the very pro EU article says as pure gospel ?

This country has facilities and resources being used be scientists - do you really think that scientists won't be able to do what they do best if we leave ? Or are you that entrenched in their being only one possible way forward ? Are you unable to see that things could be better if we did leave the EU ?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I believe you are overstating how much impact this all has in the big picture

I believe you have latched onto something because it's something that sticks firmly with the in camp

Am I able to respond to the questions - no because I'm not a scientist - are you ? Or are you taking everything the very pro EU article says as pure gospel ?

This country has facilities and resources being used be scientists - do you really think that scientists won't be able to do what they do best if we leave ? Or are you that entrenched in their being only one possible way forward ? Are you unable to see that things could be better if we did leave the EU ?

They might well be scuppered if their current research is EU-funded and the EU withdraws that funding.

Provide me with evidence that the EU won't withdraw funding from universities and other research bodies, and statements from them that says their research will continue unaffected if funding is withdrawn.

 

[Foxholer]

...
I don't doubt for one minute there would be a host of scientific opportunities lost if we pulled out of the EU. It would be naïve to suggest anything different. Equally, where is the ambition in staying other than same old same old. It's safe, without a doubt, but its 'grey' and lacks ambition.

For someone who normally puts forward very sensible arguments, this ranks with the biggest load of codswallop for an argument that I have ever seen! In fact, it actually serves as an argument to stay, rather than one to leave!

 

[Deleted member 15344]

They might well be scuppered if their current research is EU-funded and the EU withdraws that funding.

Provide me with evidence that the EU won't withdraw funding from universities and other research bodies, and statements from them that says their research will continue unaffected if funding is withdrawn.

Guess which country provides a good chunk of that EU funding ? We do. Let's not forget we provide a good proportion of money to allow the EU to fund projects.

If we leave the EU then we would provide funding for projects that have merits. Any money we give to the EU can instead be used solely in the UK

 

[Foxholer]

Sorry are they suggesting our scientists won't be able to work on ideas or bring new ideas to the table ?

Of all the things to worry about in or out - science is the least of my worries personally because whether we stay in or leave it won't stop or scientists being creative , it won't stop then having ideas etc etc.

Science/scientific research needs funding.

If the funding is significantly reduced - as the figures seem to suggest will happen - then there will be significant reduction in the amount of research that will be performed, so the number of ideas, creations and developments will correspondingly be reduced.

So, sure, science will still happen and there will be developments - just significantly fewer than there could/should be!

Guess which country provides a good chunk of that EU funding ? We do. Let's not forget we provide a good proportion of money to allow the EU to fund projects.

If we leave the EU then we would provide funding for projects that have merits. Any money we give to the EU can instead be used solely in the UK

SILH has already provided figures that show that Science/Research in UK receives far more from the EU than the UK contributes for that area! In fact, an amount equivalent to a serious chunk of the 10Bn or so that is the UK's nett contribution!

 

[Old Skier]

For this you have to provide evidence from the Universities that tell us that it won't cease (which of course it won't - except maybe it will if EU funding is immediately pulled), and then that tells us the impact leaving will have. But I am sensing that were that evidence provided and were it not to fit the Brexit view it would be ignored as not being independent.

Currently have family at Cambridge doing major research for several companies that are not in the EU so I doubt if they are going to run away.

I'm not sure why I need to provide you with evidence that you have no interest in the same as your links that have no real evidence within them don't interest me. I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other, you have already made up your mind as I have.

Even Chucka Ummunna a big In campaigner admitted on the politics show that nobody really knows what the impact on leaving would be. Some truth from a politician, things are looking up.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Could someone who says this can be ignored please read each of the three risks stated and provide a mitigation and/or contingency for each. There are only three risks so it should be easy.

The third risk is "people" and talks about putting restrictions on EU scientists causing them to put restrictions on UK scientists. Well how about if we don't put restrictions on them? I've no evidence this would happen just as the article you linked to has any evidence that we would introduce restrictions.

 

[Hobbit]

For someone who normally puts forward very sensible arguments, this ranks with the biggest load of codswallop for an argument that I have ever seen! In fact, it actually serves as an argument to stay, rather than one to leave!

There's little substance to it because I can't 'arrised arguing about it. But let's just say the UK left the EU, how much would it cost the EU to build and staff the labs that they would take all the research to from the UK ? Or maybe they scrap x many projects midstream...

i believe, especially in the early days, the collaboration would continue. I can't prove it will, nor that it won't, but can you see it all stopping dead in the water or being moved to labs that don't exist at present?

 

[ColchesterFC]

SILH has already provided figures that show that Science/Research in UK receives far more from the EU than the UK contributes for that area! In fact, an amount equivalent to a serious chunk of the 10Bn or so that is the UK's nett contribution!

If we receive "far more" in that area than we contribute then in other areas we have to receive far less than we contribute otherwise we wouldn't have a nett contribution of 10, 12 or 14 billion per year - or whatever the actual figure is.

You can't offset the extra we get for science against our nett contribution and say it's a good thing without admitting also that the extra 2 billion we pay in compared to what we get back for the environment is a bad thing. (2 billion and environment were plucked from mid air as an example rather than being based on actual figures)

 

[Hobbit]

If we receive "far more" in that area than we contribute then in other areas we have to receive far less than we contribute otherwise we wouldn't have a nett contribution of 10, 12 or 14 billion per year - or whatever the actual figure is.

You can't offset the extra we get for science against our nett contribution and say it's a good thing without admitting also that the extra 2 billion we pay in compared to what we get back for the environment is a bad thing. (2 billion and environment were plucked from mid air as an example rather than being based on actual figures)

Careful! You're being far too intelligent.

 

[Old Skier]

Careful! You're being far too intelligent.

Can you prove that