EU Referendum

[Doon frae Troon]

Don't be stupid. GREAT Britain remember. Let's put the Great back in it. Don't use your silly logic and reasoning here.

Silly logic?

My wife once bought a birthday card for our grandson which said.......to a great grandson.

 

[Ethan]

Don't be stupid. GREAT Britain remember. Let's put the Great back in it. Don't use your silly logic and reasoning here.

Great just means big. Greek and later Roman travellers referred to what is now the UK and Ireland using various words which eventually became Britain.

Great Britain referred to England, Scotland and Wales and Little Britain referred to Ireland. Nothing to do with whether it was a wonderful place or not.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Guys, CH was being ironic.

 

[Old Skier]

Guys, CH was being ironic.

That was better than fishing however there is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and its ability, unlike some.

 

[SocketRocket]

Great just means big. Greek and later Roman travellers referred to what is now the UK and Ireland using various words which eventually became Britain.

Great Britain referred to England, Scotland and Wales and Little Britain referred to Ireland. Nothing to do with whether it was a wonderful place or not.

I believe Lesser (Little) Britannia was Brittany in France.

 

[Hacker Khan]

That was better than fishing however there is nothing wrong with having pride in your country and its ability, unlike some.

I agree. But there is a danger of confusing having a pride in your country with an over inflated opinion of its importance in the new global economy. You can have faith in your own country and also want to stay in the EU, the two positions are not exclusive.

I have no doubt we can govern ourselves and also we have some services that other countries will want to buy from us. However I also believe that in order to maximise the trade we do for the good of the country we need to be in the largest trading bloc in the world.

 

[Hacker Khan]

Thats correct, it's not something I have wasted time on.

You should try it. You seem to post a bit on here so obviously have some spare time you use by going on the internet. Go on, give it a try, trust me, it is a lot funnier than this place..

 

[Ethan]

I believe Lesser (Little) Britannia was Brittany in France.

That was how the usage evolved by the 12th century, but previously Ptolemy and others used the terms to refer to Britain and Ireland. In Ptolemy's time, the British Celts had not yet taken modern Brittany.

Either way, 'Great' means 'big'.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The lack of faith people have in our own country is unbelievable.

Not so much lack of faith per se - rather it is my feeling and recognition that with globalisation and hugely complex networks of relationships trading and otherwise, it is not sensible to try and do this by ourselves. We have the trading relationships we have today because we have been on the EU for all of the period that true globalisation as we see it today has come about (since early-mid 1970s). And it has taken a long time for these relationships and networks to build up and mature.

Out of the EU (however long that might take) will find us starting from scratch as a major economy trying to form agreements across the globe in the face of a multitude of existing agreements. We as the UK will be looking for terms favourable to the UK that might well be in conflict with agreements held with and by others - and all I can see from that is that we would be forced to accept terms aligned with those of existing nations or groupings. That the UK would go into negotiations expecting and then achieving agreements more favourable than that which the EU has agreed is fanciful and ambitious (nothing wrong with ambition - but has to be framed in realism)

 

[CheltenhamHacker]

Guys, CH was being ironic.

Ta for that HK! Thought it fairly obvious, but I guess a failed attempt at humour. Just my outburst after seeing numerous people (on fb mainly) try and equate the "Great" part of GB with the ability to operate outside the EU. We're a much smaller and less important country now than we have been for centuries, and I really don't wish us to deplete that even further.

And given I work in finance, I don't fancy Frankfurt taking some of my work!

 

[Old Skier]

And given I work in finance, I don't fancy Frankfurt taking some of my work!

I'm not allowed to get into finance and don't pretend to understand it, I just get pocket money.

I thought most of the major financial institutions apart from the UK ones are outside of the U.K. (You may be able to tell me different) so how will being outside of the EU have an effect on our major financial institutions.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Ta for that HK! Thought it fairly obvious, but I guess a failed attempt at humour. Just my outburst after seeing numerous people (on fb mainly) try and equate the "Great" part of GB with the ability to operate outside the EU. We're a much smaller country now than we have been for centuries, and I really don't wish us to deplete that even further.

That'll be coastal erosion for you.

 

[SocketRocket]

Not so much lack of faith per se - rather it is my feeling and recognition that with globalisation and hugely complex networks of relationships trading and otherwise, it is not sensible to try and do this by ourselves. We have the trading relationships we have today because we have been on the EU for all of the period that true globalisation as we see it today has come about (since early-mid 1970s). And it has taken a long time for these relationships and networks to build up and mature.


Out of the EU (however long that might take) will find us starting from scratch as a major economy trying to form agreements across the globe in the face of a multitude of existing agreements. We as the UK will be looking for terms favourable to the UK that might well be in conflict with agreements held with and by others - and all I can see from that is that we would be forced to accept terms aligned with those of existing nations or groupings. That the UK would go into negotiations expecting and then achieving agreements more favourable than that which the EU has agreed is fanciful and ambitious (nothing wrong with ambition - but has to be framed in realism)

You talk about Globalisation as if it's some new concept and somehow conditional of being in the EU. The Uk has traded globally and had global connections for hundreds of years, actually I think we started it. I am not sure what you are talking about when you mention "hugely complex networks of relationships trading and otherwise" but it sounds very impressive. Trading with other countries is quite straight forward, you try to sell them goods and services and you purchase theirs is you have to. The UK has been a bit of a dream trading partner as we tend to purchase more than we sell to most people, it may be a good shot in the arm for us to experience some trade barriers as we should be encouraging more organic growth which would also create more employment. I don't think it would be in many countries interests to restrict trade with the UK. I find the challenge of standing on our own two feet with more control of our destiny quite exciting and a great challenge that will bring out the best in us.

 

[SocketRocket]

That'll be coastal erosion for you.

......

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You talk about Globalisation as if it's some new concept and somehow conditional of being in the EU. The Uk has traded globally and had global connections for hundreds of years, actually I think we started it. I am not sure what you are talking about when you mention "hugely complex networks of relationships trading and otherwise" but it sounds very impressive. Trading with other countries is quite straight forward, you try to sell them goods and services and you purchase theirs is you have to. The UK has been a bit of a dream trading partner as we tend to purchase more than we sell to most people, it may be a good shot in the arm for us to experience some trade barriers as we should be encouraging more organic growth which would also create more employment. I don't think it would be in many countries interests to restrict trade with the UK. I find the challenge of standing on our own two feet with more control of our destiny quite exciting and a great challenge that will bring out the best in us.

Except back then we didn't have the internet and the development and industrialisation we have seen in the second half of the 20th Century of many countries that back then were only just on the map. I do think you probably do understand what modern globalisation is and why it has come about since the huge advances in computing in the mid-1970s; the advent of PCs in the early 80s, and subsequently the internet and explosion in telecommunications. It's all rather a different economic and trading world than that before the UK joined the EEC and in which you say we were so successful and feel we can return to; and the UK has been in the EEC/EU for all of that time as our current trading relationships have been developed and have matured, and Brexiteers say we can just rip up all of that and start again. Use our influence - our bargaining power as a 'must have' trading partner - that's be the influence and trading power we have developed as part of the EEC/EU - not I suggest anything we can absolutely put down to our own efforts.

But hey. When you are in an eight and you think your seven teammates aren't doing as much as they could - even though together you are all pulling together in the same direction and doing not too bad - but you think you really are rather better than them - then the thing to do is to jump out of the boat, swim ashore and start looking to make a two or find partners for a four - and maybe in time an eight.

Meanwhile your ex-team mates are miles downstream and you'll never catch them - your only hope being that they sink. Which they might of course - but that wouldn't be good for anyone - after all they are still your buddies that you'd want to share a beer with.

So let's jump out the middle of the boat into turbulent water - always a good idea.

 

[Leftie]

There again, with 4 pulling one side and 3 the other, they could easily capsize or just go round in circles

:mmm:

 

[Foxholer]

You talk about Globalisation as if it's some new concept and somehow conditional of being in the EU. The Uk has traded globally and had global connections for hundreds of years, actually I think we started it....

H'mm.... I think the Portuguese might have been there somewhat earlier - like 75 years!! And the Spanish! And the French were even about the same time as the English; Dutch apparently a little later! But the spirit if Private(er) enterprise that is the English way won through, and history is generally chronicled by the victors!

 

[SocketRocket]

Except back then we didn't have the internet and the development and industrialisation we have seen in the second half of the 20th Century of many countries that back then were only just on the map. I do think you probably do understand what modern globalisation is and why it has come about since the huge advances in computing in the mid-1970s; the advent of PCs in the early 80s, and subsequently the internet and explosion in telecommunications. It's all rather a different economic and trading world than that before the UK joined the EEC and in which you say we were so successful and feel we can return to; and the UK has been in the EEC/EU for all of that time as our current trading relationships have been developed and have matured, and Brexiteers say we can just rip up all of that and start again. Use our influence - our bargaining power as a 'must have' trading partner - that's be the influence and trading power we have developed as part of the EEC/EU - not I suggest anything we can absolutely put down to our own efforts.

But hey. When you are in an eight and you think your seven teammates aren't doing as much as they could - even though together you are all pulling together in the same direction and doing not too bad - but you think you really are rather better than them - then the thing to do is to jump out of the boat, swim ashore and start looking to make a two or find partners for a four - and maybe in time an eight.

Meanwhile your ex-team mates are miles downstream and you'll never catch them - your only hope being that they sink. Which they might of course - but that wouldn't be good for anyone - after all they are still your buddies that you'd want to share a beer with.

So let's jump out the middle of the boat into turbulent water - always a good idea.

You really are making some doomsday analogies here. You seem to be convinced that the UK are incapable of self destiny or making a success on our own.

I would liken the eight to a 'ship of fools' where the rudder has fallen off, when you turn the wheel the ship keeps going in a straight line towards some nasty looking rocks, the Captain is telling everyone that all is under control but those rocks aren't going away. Some are rearranging deck chairs and a string quartet of officers have started playing 'nearer my god to thee' There is a life boat but the coxwain is telling you that it's smaller than the ship and although you are all competent rowers, have a chart and compass you will have no option but to head off into unchartered waters where nasty sea monsters await.

And the 'Ship of fools' steams steadily on towards the rocks.

 

[Old Skier]

EU Commisioner blew it for me with his appearance on TV this morning when the pompous man when interviewed said it was time for the EU countries to adopt the policies the commission had passed. It's know wonder that the out side feel that the commission is an uneleted group of retired MPs that rule the roost. It might of helped if he at least suggested that the EU Parliament had voted on said policies.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

For those who view science as being irrelevant to their EU In/Out considerations this is a short and easy read

https://uktostay.eu/2016/03/20/science/

And please don't just respond by saying 'well they would say that' - rather - if Brexiteers could counter the points made and risks raised then that would help us all.

And BTW - making statements of risk is not scaremongering. When you have a decision to make you balance risk and benefit, and you have to understand both before being able to balance them