EU Referendum

[teetime75]

Latest from the talks........UK still allowed to drive on the left.

This is being phased out over the next seven yrs.

It is hoped that by yr.four everyone will be driving in the middle.:mmm:

 

[Hobbit]

God help us. If it's a competition between him and Osborne I may well emigrate. Assuming I still can.
.

Result!!:whoo:

 

[Hacker Khan]

Result!!:whoo:

Every cloud and all that...

Trouble is they still have the internet abroad.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

God help us. If it's a competition between him and Osborne I may well emigrate. Assuming I still can.

I tell you, we are going to hell in a handcart now that the Liberal Democrats have been wiped out and we are just blindly following the US model of extremist politics and ideologies on both sides (well you could argue that the democrats are not extremist but the mental Republicans seem to make up for that). Meaning that compromise, which generally is the way to get things done, will become increasingly impossible.

If Sanders secures the Democrats' nomination I think you could argue that they are somewhat extreme, certainly by US standards.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

..and there was me bemoaning having Jeremy Hunt as mine

Must be rather like living in Corbyn's constituency.

 

[Old Skier]

Looks like we all have to wait a little longer for that Chamberlain moment. If he's had to water it down anymore and has to rely on the youth vote he's doomed.

 

[Ethan]

If Sanders secures the Democrats' nomination I think you could argue that they are somewhat extreme, certainly by US standards.

Quite unlikely. Like Trump, the people love him but the party doesn't. The party usually gets its way and can sabotage any candidate if they really want to.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Quite unlikely. Like Trump, the people love him but the party doesn't. The party usually gets its way and can sabotage any candidate if they really want to.

I was hoping that would be the case with Trump and the Republicans but they certainly seem to be leaving it late to make a move. Mind you following Christie's withdrawal what have they to offer.

As for Hilary I fear that she may be suffering from an anti-Establishment and anti-Clinton backlash.

 

[chrisd]

So, a deal is done - bring on the referendum!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Well thats a shockerooni.

Might I suggest it would be quite amusing if the UK still decides to leave

 

[chrisd]

I don't think we will but, yes, it would be!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Must be rather like living in Corbyn's constituency.

Back in the day when he first became MP JH would occasionally appear outside our wee Sainsburys in town and chat with us punters about things. No longer I fear. Wonder if he went into politics seeking the opprobrium being heaped on him these days. Doubt it somehow. I'm guessing he'll be a 'Stayer' but as his prospects of leading the Tories have I imagine gone down the plughole with his popularity that might free him to fall the other side of the argument if he so wishes.

 

[MegaSteve]

Might I suggest it would be quite amusing if the UK still decides to leave

But that's exactly what he wants...
So he can go back and do an Oliver Twist...

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Back in the day when he first became MP JH would occasionally appear outside our wee Sainsburys in town and chat with us punters about things. No longer I fear. Wonder if he went into politics seeking the opprobrium being heaped on him these days. Doubt it somehow. I'm guessing he'll be a 'Stayer' but as his prospects of leading the Tories have I imagine gone down the plughole with his popularity that might free him to fall the other side of the argument if he so wishes.

You are still quite fortunate because while you may not agree with Mr Hunt I believe he is, at least, honest.

Our MP is D Tredinnick, Google him!

 

[Ethan]

You are still quite fortunate because while you may not agree with Mr Hunt I believe he is, at least, honest.

Hunt is not honest. He is very skilled at lying, to be fair.

The weekend effect in the NHS as a justification for changes to doctors contracts is a lie. The cause is not medical staffing levels and some of his own experts have said that.

Changing the junior doctor contract to fix it is a lie. It is about providing more flexible working patterns for private providers.

Saying he wanted to negotiate was a lie. He always intended to impose the contract if negotiations did not result in unconditional surrender by the BMA.

Saying NHS chiefs had asked him to impose the contract was lie. They have all denied it and several did not even see the letter on which their names were put.

Saying he doesn't want to break up the NHS is a lie. He has written a book on doing exactly that.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Hunt is not honest. He is very skilled at lying, to be fair.

The weekend effect in the NHS as a justification for changes to doctors contracts is a lie. The cause is not medical staffing levels and some of his own experts have said that.

Changing the junior doctor contract to fix it is a lie. It is about providing more flexible working patterns for private providers.

Saying he wanted to negotiate was a lie. He always intended to impose the contract if negotiations did not result in unconditional surrender by the BMA.

Saying NHS chiefs had asked him to impose the contract was lie. They have all denied it and several did not even see the letter on which their names were put.

Saying he doesn't want to break up the NHS is a lie. He has written a book on doing exactly that.

Before accusing someone of lying you really should have some proof.

Sadly for you that does not include merely having different ideological, political views.

You have no idea what his reasons are for changing the junior doctors' contract nor his intentions over negotiations. Only your beliefs.

I might just as easily accuse the BMA of lying since they initially based their argument upon patient safety but ultimately seemed more concerned about pay for unsocial hours.

Again, like yourself, I am basing this upon my view and that is no reason to accuse them (or Jeremy Hunt) of lying.

 

[Ethan]

Before accusing someone of lying you really should have some proof.

Sadly for you that does not include merely having different ideological, political views.

You have no idea what his reasons are for changing the junior doctors' contract nor his intentions over negotiations. Only your beliefs.

I might just as easily accuse the BMA of lying since they initially based their argument upon patient safety but ultimately seemed more concerned about pay for unsocial hours.

Again, like yourself, I am basing this upon my view and that is no reason to accuse them (or Jeremy Hunt) of lying.

You really don't get it, do you?

There is a huge body of proof that the NHS is being prepared for privatisation. It is not even a stealth strategy, it is open and clear. The TTIP, changes to primary legislation to allow any willing provider and pretty much all of the changes to the structure of Trust, not to mention some actual privatisations and the spoken word of numerous Tory (and some Labour) politicians. You must live in a bubble if you think otherwise. Hunt has even written a book on it, and changes to junior doctors contracts, as a prelude to changes to consultant contracts are a part of that. The appointment of people from US healthcare insurers and the creations of a secretive Special Projects Group, as well as numerous experiments in spinning out Trusts and services provide even more evidence.

It is also belong question that the weekend effect is not due to staffing, nor can be fixed by staffing changes, but are due to case-mix. Even some of Hunt's employees, and authors of the BMJ paper agree. And there is proof that Hunt and the DH manipulated the paper while it was being written to add spin. Even the editor of the journal in which it was published has publicly criticised it.

The BMA is quite right to defend cuts to doctors pay. There was never any prospect of pay rises, but the effect of moving staff to weekends away from weekdays is damaging to them and to patient care. The Govt spin on increasing staffing and providing a 7 day NHS is a lie. Surely even you can see that?

Now, you may be basing your comments on your views, but mine are based on observation and evidence.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

You really don't get it, do you?.................................

.....................Now, you may be basing your comments on your views, but mine are based on observation and evidence.

It's you that doesn't get it.

Your comments are based upon your view and interpretation of events, perhaps even a vested interest.

Nothing wrong with that but still not sufficient to accuse someone of lying.

 

[MegaSteve]

Oh Dear... Alex is "deeply offended" :thup:...

 

[Ethan]

It's you that doesn't get it.

Your comments are based upon your view and interpretation of events, perhaps even a vested interest.

Nothing wrong with that but still not sufficient to accuse someone of lying.

You don't actually have a coherent argument. You just dismiss anyone who doesn't share your extreme opinions as voicing opinions rather than facts. You wouldn't know a fact if it ran up behind you and kicked up up the arse.

OK, Mr Keen on Facts, tell me the facts you have that the NHS is not being privatised and why Hunt's argument about weekend deaths is correct. I will await your reasoned argument, but won't hold my breath, just in case you are full of hot air. Prove to me I am wrong with facts and evidence.

As for vested interest, I do not work in the NHS nor have any junior doctor relatives or even friends. I am a medical practitioner, though, who saw the start of this process and a patient in the NHS, and care that it continues to provide a good service at reasonable value.

Please also declare your vested interests and conflicts and the basis for your expertise in this area. I am sure you wouldn't want to be seen as a bare faced hypocrite.