EU Referendum

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

And let's not forget the environment. A lot of the huge environmental improvements we have seen in this country over the last 20-25yrs, and the environmental protections provided to our land and ourselves, have come about as a result of EU legislation. Remove the need to adhere to that legislation and let business do its thing supported and encouraged by 20+yrs of untouchable Tory rule to come (as that is what we are looking at) - and see what a mess the environment gets into and the deleterious impact had on the health of the nation

And yet...for many the main concerns seem to be things like how long they have to wait for a GP appointment due to all those immigrants, and whether we should be paying them child benefit...

 

[JamPal]

And let's not forget the environment. A lot of the huge environmental improvements we have seen in this country over the last 20-25yrs, and the environmental protections provided to our land and ourselves, have come about as a result of EU legislation. Remove the need to adhere to that legislation and let business do its thing supported and encouraged by 20+yrs of untouchable Tory rule to come (as that is what we are looking at) - and see what a mess the environment gets into and the deleterious impact had on the health of the nation

Spot on!

And yet...for many the main concerns seem to be things like how long they have to wait for a GP appointment due to all those immigrants, and whether we should be paying them child benefit...

People love to have something to blame, as long as it isn't themselves ;-)

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Spot on!




People love to have something to blame, as long as it isn't themselves ;-)

As I see it the big problem with the EU debate is, and will become ever more, that LEAVE will allow (they probably won't encourage) immigration to become the focus of much public debate. The problem with that is that the debate on immigration tends to focus on us (in the UK) selfishly protecting what we have and what we deem to be sacrosanct in respect of our way of life. When the debate should really be framed in the context of the very changed world of mass movement of people that we live in today. And that movement isn't going to stop coming the UKs way just because, like Canute and the tide, we sit on the sand and tell it to.

 

[jp5]

As I see it the big problem with the EU debate is, and will become ever more, that LEAVE will allow (they probably won't encourage) immigration to become the focus of much public debate. The problem with that is that the debate on immigration tends to focus on us (in the UK) selfishly protecting what we have and what we deem to be sacrosanct in respect of our way of life. When the debate should really be framed in the context of the very changed world of mass movement of people that we live in today. And that movement isn't going to stop coming the UKs way just because, like Canute and the tide, we sit on the sand and tell it to.

Not surprising given that immigration is the #1 issue amongst the public.

And leaving the EU would seemingly go a long way to addressing that.

I think also it's about fairness and balance. I'd like to see more lax laws for non-EU nationals looking to migrate for work or family reasons here.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Not surprising given that immigration is the #1 issue amongst the public.

And leaving the EU would seemingly go a long way to addressing that.

I think also it's about fairness and balance. I'd like to see more lax laws for non-EU nationals looking to migrate for work or family reasons here.

Immigration may well be #1 issue where you live but where I live it is a total non subject. [Apart from the UKIP types who fortunately are extremely rare]
I think a lot of Scots welcome immigrants and our country certainly has the capacity and ability to take them.
[Only hard working tax paying families of course.]

Re earlier post......... I saw a recent poll that stated that of those who had made up their minds 65% of Scots wished to remain in the EU

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Not surprising given that immigration is the #1 issue amongst the public.

And leaving the EU would seemingly go a long way to addressing that.

I think also it's about fairness and balance. I'd like to see more lax laws for non-EU nationals looking to migrate for work or family reasons here.

It is - but when you ask folk why you often get spurious, ill-founded or ill-informed answers. And when pressed further you find that the concerns folk have aren't really as a result of their own personal experience - only what they have heard, read or been told about. And we know how reliable that sort of thing can be - especially in a society that is always looking to blame others for their problems and ills.

And even with those who should know these things - take David Lidington (Europe Minister) for instance last night on Newsnight - he had no idea how many immigrants are attracted to this country by the benefits system. No idea at all. But many of the public will tell us that that is a huge issue for them.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Just a thought if we vote out.......will all of those overpaid European football stars who fall over when a defender comes within a couple of feet of them now have to seek a work permit?

I suppose there could be plusses:lol:

 

[JamPal]

Not surprising given that immigration is the #1 issue amongst the public.

And leaving the EU would seemingly go a long way to addressing that.

I think also it's about fairness and balance. I'd like to see more lax laws for non-EU nationals looking to migrate for work or family reasons here.

Immigration isn't an issue where I live, I know some areas have had to deal with more than most. There are those that will use any excuse to blame migrants for their own woes. leaving Europe won't stop them.

 

[Sweep]

Since most of our human rights and employment legislation comes via the EU I worry what an unfettered tory government would do in these areas.

Except the Tories would not be unfettered. We have elections for that.

 

[Sweep]

Regardless of which side of the fence you are on, the problem with this whole debate and indeed the referendum itself, is that none of us, including the Prime Minister know the consequences of staying in or leaving. If we stay in will the very small concessions received to date be vetoed and more importantly, if we leave, will we have a trading agreement and if so, what form will it take?
Without knowing the consequences of a vote either way, how is the electorate supposed to come to a decision on probably the most important ballot of our time?

 

[Tashyboy]

And let's not forget the environment. A lot of the huge environmental improvements we have seen in this country over the last 20-25yrs, and the environmental protections provided to our land and ourselves, have come about as a result of EU legislation. Remove the need to adhere to that legislation and let business do its thing supported and encouraged by 20+yrs of untouchable Tory rule to come (as that is what we are looking at) - and see what a mess the environment gets into and the deleterious impact had on the health of the nation

And yet...for many the main concerns seem to be things like how long they have to wait for a GP appointment due to all those immigrants, and whether we should be paying them child benefit...

To be honest SILH, I am not to sure the environment issue adds up. I have seen the local council plans for the housing that is required/planned in the Mansfield area as requested by the government and it is frightening. my grandkids are gonna grow up not knowing what grass is never mind what colour it was. That is whilst still being in the EU. that is a countrywide request re councils providing planning on brownfield sites not just Mansfield.
Also I am not to sure that The environment as important as it is, is a main concern to Mr and Missis Joe Public.
Doon, immigration may not be an issue to yourselves oop north. But to people who live in Shirebrook etc that see 3,000 migrants working in jobs (sports direct hq) that were promised to regenerate mining communities, unfortunately it is a massive issue.
Not wanting to get into another immigration, environment discussion as I have already mentioned I think most folk have already made there minds up.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Except the Tories would not be unfettered. We have elections for that.

We are looking at 20+yrs maybe 30yrs of Tory government. Our FPTP electoral system is useless when you have a weak and almost unelectable main opposition party. And with the changing of boundaries the Tories are putting through (20 Labour seats gone); Labour just about to come up for air for the 3rd time in Scotland (40 seats gone); evisceration of Labour party funding from the trade unions etc. we are looking at Tory rule for possible the rest of my life. Utterly depressing - and yes - unfettered Tories.

 

[Hacker Khan]

As I see it the big problem with the EU debate is, and will become ever more, that LEAVE will allow (they probably won't encourage) immigration to become the focus of much public debate. The problem with that is that the debate on immigration tends to focus on us (in the UK) selfishly protecting what we have and what we deem to be sacrosanct in respect of our way of life. When the debate should really be framed in the context of the very changed world of mass movement of people that we live in today. And that movement isn't going to stop coming the UKs way just because, like Canute and the tide, we sit on the sand and tell it to.

I'd agree with a lot of that. To me there just seems to be a lot of wishful reminiscing by some people and a goal of returning to how Britain was in the 1950s. Plus the inevitable impulse to blame easy targets on the fact your life has not turned out at expected/you have to wait to get a doctors appointment etc etc.

Which in some way is understandable as we now live in troubling and often confusing times with the unpleasant rise of nationalism and isolated but very prominent pockets religious fundamentalism abound. I mean take a step back and just consider what has happened where we have got to the stage that people like Trump and Cruz could be very close to running a major western super power. But that is the world we now live in.

I'd agree we need to deal best with the hear and now, and most importantly ensure our kids and our kids kids have a sustainable economic and environmentally sound future. Many people expect access to natural resources to be the next reason why people go to war, if it is not already. But unfortunately politicians mostly work in the very short term and are mostly concerned about how they will be elected at the next election. And all this debate about immigrants claiming child benefits to me is at best a side issue in the EU debate.

 

[JamPal]

Ahhh the 1950's. Tooth decay, Tuberculosis, Polio and Small Pox.. Desperately hard working lives, almost zero equality for anyone and a life expectancy of 65. But at least they didn't have to deal with Johnny foreigner*.. such a wonderful time to be alive.


*Apart from the 130,000 Poles that arrived.. and the mass immigration from the Caribbean... but APART from that.. oh such a wonderful time free of immigration woes..

 

[Hobbit]

We are looking at 20+yrs maybe 30yrs of Tory government. Our FPTP electoral system is useless when you have a weak and almost unelectable main opposition party. And with the changing of boundaries the Tories are putting through (20 Labour seats gone); Labour just about to come up for air for the 3rd time in Scotland (40 seats gone); evisceration of Labour party funding from the trade unions etc. we are looking at Tory rule for possible the rest of my life. Utterly depressing - and yes - unfettered Tories.

Hope so.

Mmm, choices. Labour who couldn't run a in a brewery or.... Cons are the lesser of two evils.

 

[Ethan]

Ahhh the 1950's. Tooth decay, Tuberculosis, Polio and Small Pox.. Desperately hard working lives, almost zero equality for anyone and a life expectancy of 65. But at least they didn't have to deal with Johnny foreigner*.. such a wonderful time to be alive.


*Apart from the 130,000 Poles that arrived.. and the mass immigration from the Caribbean... but APART from that.. oh such a wonderful time free of immigration woes..

I think it is UKIP that wants to roll the clock back to the 1950s.

Seems like the Tories want to go back to pre-welfare state, and maybe bring the workhouse back. Not sure what year that is, but things were pretty grim for ordinary people then.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Hope so.

Mmm, choices. Labour who couldn't run a in a brewery or.... Cons are the lesser of two evils.

I did say a couple of weeks after the UK election that the Tories would probably revert to normal and start fighting within themselves.
A few on hear laughed.
I think we are about to see the full extent of the bitterness within the Tory party regarding Europe.
It appears that the only hope for the UK is for the Tories to split and a new centre rightish party [Con/Lab alliance] to arise.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Ahhh the 1950's. Tooth decay, Tuberculosis, Polio and Small Pox.. Desperately hard working lives, almost zero equality for anyone and a life expectancy of 65. But at least they didn't have to deal with Johnny foreigner*.. such a wonderful time to be alive.


*Apart from the 130,000 Poles that arrived.. and the mass immigration from the Caribbean... but APART from that.. oh such a wonderful time free of immigration woes..

You forgot the mass invasion of Italian ex POW's and their families who decided SE Scotland was a good place to live.

 

[Tashyboy]

I did say a couple of weeks after the UK election that the Tories would probably revert to normal and start fighting within themselves.
A few on hear laughed.
I think we are about to see the full extent of the bitterness within the Tory party regarding Europe.
It appears that the only hope for the UK is for the Tories to split and a new centre rightish party [Con/Lab alliance] to arise.

Think you could be right on the tory infighting, will be interesting to see the Labour response to this.

Not heard anyone on here yet say whether they think the deal that Dave has secured is a good un.

 

[Foxholer]

Since most of our human rights and employment legislation comes via the EU I worry what an unfettered tory government would do in these areas.

Current Employment legislation is definitely EU-centric. That, supposedly, is one of the benefits of EU membership! Should

It's absolutely crucial though to realise that Human Rights legislation/final rulings most definitely i not EU, but the ECHR (the 'C' is for Convention here, not Court), though the EU does have its own Charter - one of the pieces of beauracracy I would be happy to see eliminated as all EU members are signatories to the ECHR and simply making that a requirement of membership would suffice! Of course, just like Home Affairs ministers who fail to get their way, the EU prefer to 'control' everything in their own jurisdiction! The 'subsidiarity' the John Major was so proud of negotiating at Maastricht has been eroded or often ignored - and I believe it's the restoration of that concept (either within the framework of EU membership, or by actually leaving it) that is the real issue. The apparent 'let's just ignore it' approach to the European Parliament certainly doesn't help!

The, all too common, misconception that Human Rights are controlled by the EU is promoted by the right wing Press and governments who fail to get their way in the Courts and push poor, ill-considered, often specific case based, legislation through Parliament, or even obscenely use processes to avoid even that scrutiny!

The EU Referendum and any debate on the European Convention on Human Rights are completely separate!