EU Referendum

[Deleted member 18588]

Except surely that there are no, and can be no, hard facts about the UK out of the EU. Referring back to, and drawing from, the UK in the world Pre-EU membership is fatuous, as the world today is a very, very different place to what it was back then when the globalisation and global terrorism did not exist. At least with the Stay campaign they can give hard facts about how the UK actually performs today in the EU and the World economies and in respect of combating and fighting global terrorism.

Note - Sorry just noticed that @ColchesterFC has made that point

But as I said the facts regarding Stay or Leave relate only to the present and could be seen as a negative purely from the financial costs involved.

Nobody can provide factual evidence to the future effect of either Leave or Stay and it is pointless either side asking the other to do so. Indeed I am rather tired of this constant representation of beliefs and assumptions as fact.

Personally I feel that there are many non-financial issues that will determine which way I vote and these are beliefs and matters of conscience.

BTW I was not aware of any harking back to pre-EU (EEC as it then was) days.

 

[SocketRocket]

You know this for a fact? - as this is not what I have read or heard. I have heard that the contrary is in fact closer to the reality - that very few come to the UK for the benefits - they come to work.

And hence I guess the increase reported today of the numbers in work and the reduction in those unemployed and on benefit. Are these immigrants from the EU coming to the UK and taking the jobs of the indigenous population? - or are the scroungers off the state?

Anyway - on the NI/RoI front it seems that the answer to my question is that as the RoI will not and cannot stop citizens of EU countries going to RoI then unless we build a fence between RoI and NI and have border posts at every crossing - EU citizens can get into NI at will. And so what will they do there? Get on the ferry at Larne and across the Irish Sea. And once they are in England, Wales and Scotland we have a lovely big illegal immigrant problem to deal with. Either that or put internal UK passport control on ferries from Larne and turn NI into once great big camp for illegal immigrants trying to get to UK

Of course we hope it won't be like that (and I sense that with the Leave campaign hope springs eternal) but I rather hoped (me too) that this had been thought through a bit more as it's not as if it is something that has come out of the blue.

It's not rocket science! How do you think the UK manages immigration control from outside the EU. You just check at airports and ferry terminals if people have passports or visas, if not you send them home. As soon as people see this it stops the pull factor.

 

[Hacker Khan]

The answer to that question is show how we would be better staying than going. Allowing us to have some money back is not a very strong reason. There is more to it for me than the fact we are a net contributor, it's also reasons like I have pointed out in post #524, I also have an intrinsic preference for the UK to have a completely sovereign government that can make decisions and laws independently. Whether we are a bit better or worse off on our own is not much of a deciding factor for me as I have faith in this Nation and that we are more than capable of standing our corner in the World without the smothering effect of the EU on our spirit and freedom.

You have seen the state of the average feckless youth in this country now? And these are the people that you will be trusting the future of our nation to? Best of luck with that?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Phil, have you looked how Norway, which isn't in the EU, with its 1500km border is absolutely overrun with illegal immigrants. Norway has also had THE best standard of living in the world for the last 6 years.

OMG! There's a country outside the EU, with a trading agreement with the EU, that has a fantastic economy... How on earth did that happen? Last year we heard Alex Salmond telling everyone and his dog that Scotland should mirror Norway.

Maybe the UK needs to have a look at how Norway is managed...?

How the hell do they survive without the bosom of mother EU to protect them :thup:

Norway is a perfect example of how we can not only survive well but flourish without the EU

 

[Deleted member 15344]

They'll either have to travel through the UK or go there direct by air or by sea. Will UK Border Control be able to prevent passage through the UK of EU citizens wanting to travel to RoI? And if they won't what will stop said citizens once in the UK just not bothering to go to RoI.

I agree - of course this is not a deal breaker - and yes I am over-egging it - I just thought that someone in the Leave campaign would have thought this through and have a logical and workable solution to hand. But it appears not. And we are left with - Something will be done; EU citizens won't bother coming - and NI won't turn into one big camp for illegal immigrants unable to get into the UK across the Irish Sea. Fair enough,

You are massively over egging - it's as simple as that IMO

 

[Ethan]

How the hell do they survive without the bosom of mother EU to protect them :thup:

Norway is a perfect example of how we can not only survive well but flourish without the EU

All we need to do is find massive reserves of oil sufficient to make the UK a net exporter of huge amounts of oil and then invest the proceeds wisely in a sovereign fund intended to better the lot of average citizens rather than the fat cats in the City. Do you think Cameron can manage that by June?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

All we need to do is find massive reserves of oil sufficient to make the UK a net exporter of huge amounts of oil and then invest the proceeds wisely in a sovereign fund intended to better the lot of average citizens rather than the fat cats in the City. Do you think Cameron can manage that by June?

Ethan, for once you and I can completely agree on something!

Since the North Sea fields were first developed successive Governments have wasted the potential legacy that they could have left this country, largely IMO due to short termism.

To now compare us with Norway is only to dream. The North Sea Bubble has long since been burst, with the notable exception of the Shetland Isles.

 

[SocketRocket]

You have seen the state of the average feckless youth in this country now? And these are the people that you will be trusting the future of our nation to? Best of luck with that?

Get that tongue out your cheek. You know the British people are made up by more than feckless youths.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I'm confused - I'm sure I can remember lots of talk about vast oil fields that we're going to be used to support an independent Scotland ? Have they disappeared ?

I'm also maybe reading that the people that wanted Scotland I dependant don't seem to want the UK independent ?

 

[Hacker Khan]

Get that tongue out your cheek. You know the British people are made up by more than feckless youths.

Yup, there's apparently huge amounts of immigrants here with the sole purpose of scrounging off the state as well. Plus lots of old retired people, a massive service sector that can be mostly outsourced anywhere in the world and a banking/financial industry that will bugger off somewhere else if we pull out of the EU. Still confident we can maintain our position...

 

[SocketRocket]

Ethan, for once you and I can completely agree on something!

Since the North Sea fields were first developed successive Governments have wasted the potential legacy that they could have left this country, largely IMO due to short termism.

To now compare us with Norway is only to dream. The North Sea Bubble has long since been burst, with the notable exception of the Shetland Isles.

We did a bit of a 'Greece' with it and wasted much of the revenue on things like tax credits, paying people to stay home and bloated pensions for state employees.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I'm confused - I'm sure I can remember lots of talk about vast oil fields that we're going to be used to support an independent Scotland ? Have they disappeared ?

I'm also maybe reading that the people that wanted Scotland I dependant don't seem to want the UK independent ?

Certainly there is the possibility of new developments in the North Sea and possibly the Clyde Basin. However, the fall in worldwide demand and its effect upon oil prices may mean that these never come to fruition.

If, however, they did then to benefit the nation's economy the situation would need to be far better managed than is the case with the present Government or its various predecessors.

 

[MegaSteve]

You have seen the state of the average feckless youth in this country now? And these are the people that you will be trusting the future of our nation to? Best of luck with that?

By remaining in, opportunities for our youth, [feckless or otherwise] will continue to diminish as they have done since joining... Possibly at an even quicker rate... Manufacturing all but gone keyboard operators and distribution centres next on the list...

 

[Hacker Khan]

By remaining in, opportunities for our youth, [feckless or otherwise] will continue to diminish as they have done since joining... Possibly at an even quicker rate... Manufacturing all but gone keyboard operators and distribution centres next on the list...

I suspect the decline of our manufacturing industry could be apportioned to government policies and the emergence of other nations rather than the fact we have been in the EU. Same for the rise of zero contract jobs and call centres, not 100% sure how the EU has caused, accelerated or even directly contributed to this?

 

[Hobbit]

I'm confused - I'm sure I can remember lots of talk about vast oil fields that we're going to be used to support an independent Scotland ? Have they disappeared ?

I'm also maybe reading that the people that wanted Scotland I dependant don't seem to want the UK independent ?

They're still there. But as the North Sea has an average cost of $65 a barrel to lift, and they're selling at $31, they're not planning on drilling in the near future. That said, George Osbourne is considering significant tax breaks for exploration - currently, the Norwegians are getting 78% tax breaks, which the UK can't match because its against EU rules....

 

[MegaSteve]

I suspect the decline of our manufacturing industry could be apportioned to government policies and the emergence of other nations rather than the fact we have been in the EU. Same for the rise of zero contract jobs and call centres, not 100% sure how the EU has caused, accelerated or even directly contributed to this?

I am more inclined to feel, with EU membership, business has found it all too easy to move their manufacturing elsewhere...

In a few hundred years historians will look back and see the UK prospered for 30yrs or so post war... Then they'll see a rapid decline from about the time of joining the EU... As I noted previously, had we been in from day one, I feel the situation may have been a whole lot different... EU membership promised a lot but from where I am sitting has delivered on little...

In the 45yrs or so since I started work the opportunities for our youth have disappeared elsewhere... I am truly concerned for the lot of my grandchildren...

 

[SocketRocket]

I suspect the decline of our manufacturing industry could be apportioned to government policies and the emergence of other nations rather than the fact we have been in the EU. Same for the rise of zero contract jobs and call centres, not 100% sure how the EU has caused, accelerated or even directly contributed to this?

Our youth have to compete for jobs against an unlimited number of people who are content to work on Zero hour contracts and for minimum wages or below in some cases. Opening up our job market to such numbers (and with the prospect of this number getting much larger) then IMO our young people will be better off if we are out.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I am more inclined to feel, with EU membership, business has found it all too easy to move their manufacturing elsewhere...

In a few hundred years historians will look back and see the UK prospered for 30yrs or so post war... Then they'll see a rapid decline from about the time of joining the EU... As I noted previously, had we been in from day one, I feel the situation may have been a whole lot different... EU membership promised a lot but from where I am sitting has delivered on little...

In the 45yrs or so since I started work the opportunities for our youth have disappeared elsewhere... I am truly concerned for the lot of my grandchildren...

Me too. And I would be even more concerned if we opted out of the biggest trading bloc in the world and tried to go it alone. Unfortunately manufacturing is not going to come rushing back to the UK if we opt out, and there is an argument to say we would be even less attractive for many companies. And zero contract jobs will not disappear as capitalism will see to that. There is massive competition from the far east and IMHO we need to be in a big trading bloc to fight that, not on our own.

Also not sure if you have any stats to back up the statement that we prospered for 30 years since the war and then have gone into decline. Here's a link to show annual GDP growth and I'm not seeing any correlation myself.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/elmr/...p-in-the-uk/sty-long-term-profile-of-gdp.html

 

[SocketRocket]

Me too. And I would be even more concerned if we opted out of the biggest trading bloc in the world and tried to go it alone. Unfortunately manufacturing is not going to come rushing back to the UK if we opt out, and there is an argument to say we would be even less attractive for many companies. And zero contract jobs will not disappear as capitalism will see to that. There is massive competition from the far east and IMHO we need to be in a big trading bloc to fight that, not on our own.

Also not sure if you have any stats to back up the statement that we prospered for 30 years since the war and then have gone into decline. Here's a link to show annual GDP growth and I'm not seeing any correlation myself.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/elmr/...p-in-the-uk/sty-long-term-profile-of-gdp.html

Sorry for repeating this but do you honestly think we will not trade with any EU countries if we exit?

 

[Hacker Khan]

Sorry for repeating this but do you honestly think we will not trade with any EU countries if we exit?

And at the risk of repeating myself as seems to be the way in these ever decreasing circular threads, of course we will still do business and trade with EU countries. No one is saying we will not. My argument/thoughts/opinion I copied verbatim from The Guardian is that it is easier for UK businesses to do business with other countries in the world largest trade bloc if you are in that bloc, as opposed to not being in that bloc. In addition to the ease of conducting business with fellow like minded club members, countries tend to favour trading with certain nations and whilst I am sure we will not go on any back lists, I am also pretty confident that a fellow EU member state are favoured when it comes to doing business with over a non EU member state. And the more business and exports UK based businesses can do the better if we want a stable economy.

Think of it as the intangible benefits you get from being the member of a golf club. If you want just the 'economic arguments and facts' then you can say if you play 40 times a year the rounds work out cheaper if you become a member. But as many have stated on here, there are also the intangible benefits that a lot of people like. Such as being a member of an exclusive club, meeting like minded individuals, looking down on poor people, the ability to feel important by sitting on a committee and banning anyone wearing high tops shoes like Ricky Fowler wears, that kind of thing.