EU Referendum

[ColchesterFC]

From that clip it would appear that neither side of the debate can base their argument on cold, hard facts and, thus, we will all have to decide based upon our gut-feeling, emotion, political leaning, instinct and possibly even prejudice.

Bit like any other election or referendum!

What it does suggest to me is that it is pointless for those committed on either side to demand facts from others as those available are not conclusive.

While I agree to a large degree surely the benefits of remaining in the EU are possible to quantify as they should be existing benefits that we are already receiving. The benefits of leaving are based on possiblies/maybes/what ifs and are far more difficult to state factually.

 

[Hacker Khan]

While I agree to a large degree surely the benefits of remaining in the EU are possible to quantify as they should be existing benefits that we are already receiving. The benefits of leaving are based on possiblies/maybes/what ifs and are far more difficult to state factually.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/erdf-programmes-progress-and-achievements

 

[Deleted member 18588]

While I agree to a large degree surely the benefits of remaining in the EU are possible to quantify as they should be existing benefits that we are already receiving. The benefits of leaving are based on possiblies/maybes/what ifs and are far more difficult to state factually.

But if you view the clip it would appear that for the majority of us the only quantifiable benefit/cost is the difference between the money going out and the money coming in. So you could say that there is a cost rather than a benefit to remaining in.

The benefits/costs for industry and service sector and, therefore, the economy, of remaining in or leaving cannot be clearly determined and are open to all sorts of hypotheses and assumptions.

Aside from the finances there are questions around security, federalism, social legislation etc; and again how do you quantify these. To me they are matters of conscience rather than "the wallet".

 

[SocketRocket]

But if you view the clip it would appear that for the majority of us the only quantifiable benefit/cost is the difference between the money going out and the money coming in. So you could say that there is a cost rather than a benefit to remaining in.

The benefits/costs for industry and service sector and, therefore, the economy, of remaining in or leaving cannot be clearly determined and are open to all sorts of hypotheses and assumptions.

Aside from the finances there are questions around security, federalism, social legislation etc; and again how do you quantify these. To me they are matters of conscience rather than "the wallet".

Thats absolutely correct. Good post!

I have concerns over unlimited EU migration and where this may lead in the future as more poorer economies are allowed in, particularly Turkey. IMO the availability of unlimited low cost labour has and progressively will keep down wages and encourage companies to use Zero Hour contracts and the Minimum wage, although as the minimum wage rises it will be a big pull factor on unskilled labour from abroad. Some are saying that Migration is the only reason many people are wanting an out vote but I see this as quite reasonable as it affects the lives of so many where Public services become more and more strained. This subject more than any other affects the way I will vote, if we could get agreement from the EU to be able to control immigration ourselves then I could just about suck up the rest of what I dont like but alas that will not happen.

 

[SocketRocket]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/erdf-programmes-progress-and-achievements

But those programs are funded by giving us back some of our money.

 

[MegaSteve]

Apparently it's all down to what Boris decides...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35592466


Now I know we are in trouble...

 

[Foxholer]

Thats absolutely correct. Good post!

I have concerns over unlimited EU migration and where this may lead in the future as more poorer economies are allowed in, particularly Turkey. IMO the availability of unlimited low cost labour has and progressively will keep down wages and encourage companies to use Zero Hour contracts and the Minimum wage, although as the minimum wage rises it will be a big pull factor on unskilled labour from abroad. Some are saying that Migration is the only reason many people are wanting an out vote but I see this as quite reasonable as it affects the lives of so many where Public services become more and more strained. This subject more than any other affects the way I will vote, if we could get agreement from the EU to be able to control immigration ourselves then I could just about suck up the rest of what I dont like but alas that will not happen.

Just something to maintain your concerns.....

The deal Cameron is negotiating doesn't actually specifically restrict immigration (from EU countries). It 'merely' restricts the Benefits that can be claimed by any of those immigrants!

 

[SocketRocket]

Just something to maintain your concerns.....

The deal Cameron is negotiating doesn't actually specifically restrict immigration (from EU countries). It 'merely' restricts the Benefits that can be claimed by any of those immigrants!

Thats correct and why I don't support him. His plan to restrict benefits will have almost zero impact on immigration.

 

[Hacker Khan]

But those programs are funded by giving us back some of our money.

But by that logic it is impossible to quantify any benefits we are receiving as all the leavers will say is 'they are giving us back some of our money'. I am really confused what the leavers want the ones who want to stay in to prove or demonstrate.

 

[Foxholer]

But by that logic it is impossible to quantify any benefits we are receiving as all the leavers will say is 'they are giving us back some of our money'. I am really confused what the leavers want the ones who want to stay in to prove or demonstrate.

Pretty simple really! That the benefits of membership outweigh the harm/cost!

And one of the issues is that UK is getting value for money for its 'contribution'!

Unfortunately, everyone has different attitudes as to the weighting they put on the benefits and harm/cost involved!

 

[Tashyboy]

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/erdf-programmes-progress-and-achievements

And that quite frankly has emphasised why the EU can get lost, Mansfield had £50,000 for its town centre which is dying on its ass, but recieved £500,000 for office space.
oh ah when this government could of gone to the EU for financial support, it declined. Neither mr Cameron or mr EU did nothing to help me. So maybe someone could explain to me why I should either of these people.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

With EU funding programmes the Member State also has to provide an element of matched funding, so in effect we're getting some of our own money back but then having to contribute even more public money to the projects that are chosen.

 

[Foxholer]

With EU funding programmes the Member State also has to provide an element of matched funding, so in effect we're getting some of our own money back but then having to contribute even more public money to the projects that are chosen.

That actually seems a pretty good idea to me!

 

[SocketRocket]

But by that logic it is impossible to quantify any benefits we are receiving as all the leavers will say is 'they are giving us back some of our money'. I am really confused what the leavers want the ones who want to stay in to prove or demonstrate.

The answer to that question is show how we would be better staying than going. Allowing us to have some money back is not a very strong reason. There is more to it for me than the fact we are a net contributor, it's also reasons like I have pointed out in post #524, I also have an intrinsic preference for the UK to have a completely sovereign government that can make decisions and laws independently. Whether we are a bit better or worse off on our own is not much of a deciding factor for me as I have faith in this Nation and that we are more than capable of standing our corner in the World without the smothering effect of the EU on our spirit and freedom.

 

[Tashyboy]

The answer to that question is show how we would be better staying than going. Allowing us to have some money back is not a very strong reason. There is more to it for me than the fact we are a net contributor, it's also reasons like I have pointed out in post #524, I also have an intrinsic preference for the UK to have a completely sovereign government that can make decisions and laws independently. Whether we are a bit better or worse off on our own is not much of a deciding factor for me as I have faith in this Nation and that we are more than capable of standing our corner in the World without the smothering effect of the EU on our spirit and freedom.

Socket that last long sentence starting with "Whether" pretty much sums it up for me. If you are asking me can we survive without the EU. My answer would be can the EU survive without us.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

If someone wants to get into the UK from any Non EU now they find a way -

If we were to leave the EU the borders could still be open but people from outside of the U.K. wouldn't be able to arrive and then start living of the state - people from Eastern Europe come to the UK to get their free money and then live a nice life without lifting a finger. They wouldn't be able to do that if we left the EU because we wouldn't have to give them a single penny

You know this for a fact? - as this is not what I have read or heard. I have heard that the contrary is in fact closer to the reality - that very few come to the UK for the benefits - they come to work.

And hence I guess the increase reported today of the numbers in work and the reduction in those unemployed and on benefit. Are these immigrants from the EU coming to the UK and taking the jobs of the indigenous population? - or are the scroungers off the state?

Anyway - on the NI/RoI front it seems that the answer to my question is that as the RoI will not and cannot stop citizens of EU countries going to RoI then unless we build a fence between RoI and NI and have border posts at every crossing - EU citizens can get into NI at will. And so what will they do there? Get on the ferry at Larne and across the Irish Sea. And once they are in England, Wales and Scotland we have a lovely big illegal immigrant problem to deal with. Either that or put internal UK passport control on ferries from Larne and turn NI into once great big camp for illegal immigrants trying to get to UK

Of course we hope it won't be like that (and I sense that with the Leave campaign hope springs eternal) but I rather hoped (me too) that this had been thought through a bit more as it's not as if it is something that has come out of the blue.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

How will they be able to work as illegal immigrants ? The U.K. Being out of the EU will IMO be a less than attractive destination to people from within the EU

I have a feeling you maybe over playing this whole situation a tiny bit

I'm first interested how these EU workers will get to ROI as most enter the UK currently via the Chunnel - it's not the easiest route through ROI. Right now it's not a massive channel.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

From that clip it would appear that neither side of the debate can base their argument on cold, hard facts and, thus, we will all have to decide based upon our gut-feeling, emotion, political leaning, instinct and possibly even prejudice.

Bit like any other election or referendum!

What it does suggest to me is that it is pointless for those committed on either side to demand facts from others as those available are not conclusive.

Except surely that there are no, and can be no, hard facts about the UK out of the EU. Referring back to, and drawing from, the UK in the world Pre-EU membership is fatuous, as the world today is a very, very different place to what it was back then when the globalisation and global terrorism did not exist. At least with the Stay campaign they can give hard facts about how the UK actually performs today in the EU and the World economies and in respect of combating and fighting global terrorism.

Note - Sorry just noticed that @ColchesterFC has made that point

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

How will they be able to work as illegal immigrants ? The U.K. Being out of the EU will IMO be a less than attractive destination to people from within the EU

I have a feeling you maybe over playing this whole situation a tiny bit

I'm first interested how these EU workers will get to ROI as most enter the UK currently via the Chunnel - it's not the easiest route through ROI. Right now it's not a massive channel.

They'll either have to travel through the UK or go there direct by air or by sea. Will UK Border Control be able to prevent passage through the UK of EU citizens wanting to travel to RoI? And if they won't what will stop said citizens once in the UK just not bothering to go to RoI.

I agree - of course this is not a deal breaker - and yes I am over-egging it - I just thought that someone in the Leave campaign would have thought this through and have a logical and workable solution to hand. But it appears not. And we are left with - Something will be done; EU citizens won't bother coming - and NI won't turn into one big camp for illegal immigrants unable to get into the UK across the Irish Sea. Fair enough,

 

[Hobbit]

How will they be able to work as illegal immigrants ? The U.K. Being out of the EU will IMO be a less than attractive destination to people from within the EU

I have a feeling you maybe over playing this whole situation a tiny bit

I'm first interested how these EU workers will get to ROI as most enter the UK currently via the Chunnel - it's not the easiest route through ROI. Right now it's not a massive channel.

Phil, have you looked how Norway, which isn't in the EU, with its 1500km border is absolutely overrun with illegal immigrants. Norway has also had THE best standard of living in the world for the last 6 years.

OMG! There's a country outside the EU, with a trading agreement with the EU, that has a fantastic economy... How on earth did that happen? Last year we heard Alex Salmond telling everyone and his dog that Scotland should mirror Norway.

Maybe the UK needs to have a look at how Norway is managed...?