SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
What an absolutely stupid and infantile link, I just cant see why you bothered to post it!
Bit quiet in the office today?
EU Referendum
- Thread starter Doon frae Troon
- Start date
What an absolutely stupid and infantile link, I just cant see why you bothered to post it!
Bit quiet in the office today?
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Because, despite what Brexit would want you to believe, countries remain independent when in the EU - and an independent Scotland can have it's own voice in Europe and not have it's voice lost in Westminster's.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
So a small independent country like Scotland would have a voice in the EU while a major country like the UK can get very little through or changed within the EU. Dream on, the Eastern block now has the major overriding say in what happens with Germany controlling their purse strings.
A none issue anyway as Ms Sturdgen in an interview with the BBC early this week or late last week stated that a UK leave would not be significant factor that would cause another Independence vote in Scotland.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
One thing I'm really struggling with with Brexit is that which has caused Sarah Wollaston to change her mind move to Remain. It is a fact that we UK does not pay £350m a week into the EU. A fact. And my goodness when looking forward we seem to be rather short of these in this debate - from both sides.
Putting aside what comes back to the UK in the form of funding - it is a fact that the rebate is taken off before the UK pays a penny. Yet Brexit continues to claim that we pay £350m to the EU every week when we just don't. It is quite simply a lie.
There are many things that Remain and Leave are predicting that will happen - but these are not lies - these are predictions that can be debunked if you wish or you can say are based on false premises and assumptions. But the £350m figure is just simply not true.
But Brexit refuse to admit it - last night we heard BoJo Buffon refuse to accept it; yesterday on Today prog being interviewed by Nick Robinson, John Redwood just would not admit that the figure as being presented by Brexit was wrong,
I'm guessing Brexit is simply thinking we've got the £350m figure in our sympathisers head, so why admit we have been lying and risk losing some. So they persist - quite happily running with the lie. And when they so blatantly and brazenly continue to perpetrate this lie, why should I believe a single word that they say.
Putting aside what comes back to the UK in the form of funding - it is a fact that the rebate is taken off before the UK pays a penny. Yet Brexit continues to claim that we pay £350m to the EU every week when we just don't. It is quite simply a lie.
There are many things that Remain and Leave are predicting that will happen - but these are not lies - these are predictions that can be debunked if you wish or you can say are based on false premises and assumptions. But the £350m figure is just simply not true.
But Brexit refuse to admit it - last night we heard BoJo Buffon refuse to accept it; yesterday on Today prog being interviewed by Nick Robinson, John Redwood just would not admit that the figure as being presented by Brexit was wrong,
I'm guessing Brexit is simply thinking we've got the £350m figure in our sympathisers head, so why admit we have been lying and risk losing some. So they persist - quite happily running with the lie. And when they so blatantly and brazenly continue to perpetrate this lie, why should I believe a single word that they say.
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SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
You see with this statement you have absolutely no basis for making it. I suggest that you have very little idea how influential the UK is and has been in forming EU policy - and neither really do I - other than when examples are presented. Indeed just one thing Brexiteers claim about the UK is in respect of such as workplace and employment law, health and safety etc, is that we - the UK - have driven EU policy - and so Brexit claim why would a Brexitted UK change things? So I suggest that the UK has been very influential in forming EU policy. The fact that UK does not always get it's way does mean that the UK has no voice or gets little changed.
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jp5
Q-School Graduate
You're right SILH, it is a real shame that they are perpetuating a downright lie.
Even Farage has distanced himself from it which tells you something.
Boggles my mind why they don't opt for the non-debated net figure of £10billion / year - it's still a heck of a lot of money! And just as imperceivable as £350m/week.
Even Farage has distanced himself from it which tells you something.
Boggles my mind why they don't opt for the non-debated net figure of £10billion / year - it's still a heck of a lot of money! And just as imperceivable as £350m/week.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
Strangely I find myself agreeing with SiLH on something. Got the latest Leave leaflet through the door and it has the £350 million figure all over it. Was wondering why they were still using it even though it isn't true. Leave supporters will say it is because our rebate is not guaranteed and Remain supporters counter with the UK has a veto if they try to change it so it won't happen. Would be much better for Leave to use the £350 million less our rebate as the actual amount we send to the EU each week.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
What Sturgeon says is that if the UK leaving the EU caused a significant shift in the Yes/No independence balance in Scotland for a sustained period, then that would in all likelihood be a trigger for a call for a further referendum. A Brexit in itself will not.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Perhaps they realise that their economic credibility is wafer thin, and that their only high value card in the economic debate is this £350million a week figure. Admitting that they have willfully and continually misrepresented what the UK actually pays might not play that well with waverers.
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
What about Osborn's £4,200 a year for each family. His own Treasury now say it's not true and should not be used . There are exaggerated claims on both sides and we all know it.
Regarding the outlandish financial distortion being banded about especially by Remain I recall the words of Oscar Wilde that 'A cynic was a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing'.
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ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
I'm not sure that the Remain campaign has much better economic credibility. With the claims about each household being £4200 per year worse off or house prices falling by 20% in the event of a Leave vote they don't fill me with confidence that they know what will happen.
I suppose that the best you can say is that these are forecasts or predictions rather than being provably wrong.
I suppose that the best you can say is that these are forecasts or predictions rather than being provably wrong.
Crazyface
Tour Winner
Seriously? Sure it's not £350 million but it is, after rebates and whatnot, £250 MILLION. As the lady last night said....when someone askes you how much do you earn you say £30K (or whatever) NOT £30K less tax, NI, pension, payment s to wifey etc. Leave went for the top figure (as anyone would). But NEVER EVER FORGET when you go to vote IT IS ABOUT £250 MILLION. FACT
Leave...can quote facts...Remain can only guess and that's why Remain are now slinging mud.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
So why is it £350 million on the side of the Leave bus and all over their literature if even someone as supportive of Leave as you are knows it's not true?
SocketRocket
Ryder Cup Winner
Boris explained that £350 million was the cost of us staying in. I guest he includes intangible items.
ColchesterFC
Journeyman Pro
Why is it the cost of staying in? That's not how much we actually pay so it isn't the cost of it.
The Leave leaflet that was delivered to the house this morning states "we send over £350 million to the EU every week". This is blatantly untrue as the rebate is deducted before we pay anything to the EU.
The Leave leaflet that was delivered to the house this morning states "we send over £350 million to the EU every week". This is blatantly untrue as the rebate is deducted before we pay anything to the EU.
The argument is that the figure of the rebate could change. £350m is the figure that would be sent untouched if our rebate was ever rescinded.
jp5
Q-School Graduate
Which would be fine if that was what they are claiming. But it's not - they're saying we're sending that every week.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
But that is conjecture - Brexit talk about how much we send - that is historically and present day. And it's not true.
As for the £4200 figure - it comes form the LSE - and it's a forecast that you can debunk if you wish
Our baseline estimates come from a state-of-the-art static model of the global economy. We also present estimates using empirical evidence on the links between EU membership, trade and income. This ‘reduced-form’ approach captures the long-run effects of leaving the EU on productivity growth and leads to much higher estimates. In this case, we calculate that Brexit may reduce national income by between 6.3% and 9.5% – that is, about £4,200 to £6,400 per household per year.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2...to-trade-at-least-850-per-household-per-year/
So GO presented the £4200 in the comparative way used by the LSE to give the top line figure some meaning - in much the same way Brexit convert £350m into 600,000 nurses and a hospital a week (btw - just in case you were mistaken - you can't have both)
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_cost
Whatever weasel words Bojo uses around the £350m figure, he should just tell us that, actually, the UK does not send £350m a week to the EU. But no - in his disingenuous and deceitful way he (and the rest of them) choose to continue to perpetrate the myth that Brexit have created. Tell a lie enough times and some people will believe it to be true.
SwingsitlikeHogan
Major Champion
Your £250m does not include money returned to UK in funding (about £80m I believe). You might well say you want to be able to choose how to spend that £80m. But if you spend it differently there will be losers and Brexit isn't supposed to create losers - so let's leave it where it is and assume you want to maintain current levels of funding to those who currently get a slice of the £80m.
That leaves £170m. Now that's a lot of money - but it won't fund 600,000 nurses or one new hospital a week. So these indicative comparisons themselves immediately also become misleading - and as they based upon a lie - they themselves are also lies. And so it goes on.
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