EU Referendum

[Hacker Khan]

Heres another just for you. If thats the best you can add to the debate then it's not worth a reasoned reply

But you'll give one anyway

 

[SocketRocket]

But you'll give one anyway

Not if he says no more. It's a bit like you jumping in with nothing to add but sarcasm, is that the way it works now.

PS. Does the whistling smiley attempt to belittle me? Not very clever, is it!

 

[FairwayDodger]

You are moving from sensible debate to one of insults. If thats the way you feel you can score points then it's a bit of a disappointment but one we have become accustomed to with the Stay campaign. I will try not to attack your integrity just because you hold a different opinion though.

Who said anything about the EU or the ROTW being mean to us? The EU is just acting in their normal undemocratic manner due to them being on a one way track to a superstate that is run by Big Brother. I dont see that as being mean to us I just see it as the way it is. The ROTW have no such ambitions.

Struggling to see any insult in anything I've posted. Just highlighting how illogical your stance appears to me. Sorry you feel the need to personalise the discussion.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yet your strategy for playing a big part in the world is to pull out of the biggest international cooperation organisation to which we belong. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Really struggling to follow your logic. If the ROTW are mean to us like the EU have supposedly been will we run away again?

You must admit the inherent contradiction in your posts?

Struggling to see any insult in anything I've posted. Just highlighting how illogical your stance appears to me. Sorry you feel the need to personalise the discussion.

Just take another look. This method of questioning peoples integrity rather than debate the issue in hand and directing your argument to the subject matter is a policy I find a little concerning. It creates a debate than descends into personal point scoring such that you either have to stand back and be insulted or retaliate. It's not a good way to debate but alas more and more used.

 

[PhilTheFragger]

Im tempted to do my annual mass debate joke, but i've lost the will to live

and we have another 19 days or so to put up with this and then the aftermath

give me strength

 

[Ethan]

Typical lefty claptrap. These arguments work on the basis we will not trade anything to the EU if we leave. Anyone with more than two brain cells knows that wont happen.

The Brexit strategy is a totally brain dead one which basically says ignore experts, they have been wrong before. We are British, dammit, Johnny Foreigner needs us more than we need him. We won two world wars (OK, the Russians won WW2) and we can be great again.

They say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Well, this one is based on a theory somewhat like King Canute's, that sheer will and self belief is enough. The same people advocating this are those who complain that the working class in this country are feckless and lazy.

The Brexit campaign is just smoke and mirrors. At least be honest and say it is because you don't like the Germans and French instead of dressing up fantasy data in a pitiful attempt to draw a respectably facade over naked xenophobia.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Just take another look. This method of questioning peoples integrity rather than debate the issue in hand and directing your argument to the subject matter is a policy I find a little concerning. It creates a debate than descends into personal point scoring such that you either have to stand back and be insulted or retaliate. It's not a good way to debate but alas more and more used.

Nope still don't see what the problem is. I haven't made any personal remarks just stated that your "leave the Eu but do more international cooperation" plan is contradictory. Indeed, you are the only one who is making a personal attack.

 

[SocketRocket]

The Brexit strategy is a totally brain dead one which basically says ignore experts, they have been wrong before. We are British, dammit, Johnny Foreigner needs us more than we need him. We won two world wars (OK, the Russians won WW2) and we can be great again.

They say patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Well, this one is based on a theory somewhat like King Canute's, that sheer will and self belief is enough. The same people advocating this are those who complain that the working class in this country are feckless and lazy.

The Brexit campaign is just smoke and mirrors. At least be honest and say it is because you don't like the Germans and French instead of dressing up fantasy data in a pitiful attempt to draw a respectably facade over naked xenophobia.

Again you make these stupid attacks out of blind ignorance. What do you know about people like me and our feelings to Germans and French. Personally I have nothing but a like and respect for them, that doesn't not mean I want a political arrangement between the UK and the EU though, that is a completely different situation which I am amazed you cannot understand. I have lived and worked in Germany for many years and some of my very best friends are Germans, I consider your comments as below contempt.

OK then, The Remain strategy is a totally brain dead one which basically says ignore experts, they have been wrong before. We are European dammit, Johnny British needs us more than we need him. We Lost two world wars and we can destroy our continent again.

King Canute was indeed a clever person and not the idiot people ignorant of history believe. He made his gesture of commanding the tide to stay back and not swamp him to show that no one is superior to nature. To generalise that anyone who is in favour of Brexit also believes the whole Working class is feckless and lazy is a statement from a rather xenophobic and confused mindset.

 

[SocketRocket]

Nope still don't see what the problem is. I haven't made any personal remarks just stated that your "leave the Eu but do more international cooperation" plan is contradictory. Indeed, you are the only one who is making a personal attack.

Maybe you can point out where I have made a personal attack against you?

 

[delc]

One where we have no power of direction as it's undemocratically directed and is incapable of dealing with any kind of international issues. Just look to the debacle that is taking place in the Mediterranean right now to see how ineffective the EU sloth is. Regarding your dilemma I suggest you wait a little longer as if we Stay you will end up crying over 'spilt milk' if our opportunities to do something really great are lost.

Why do you consider the EU to be undemocratic and the UK having no power of direction? We have the elected European Parliament and Councils of Ministers, where we have as much influence, probably more, than the other EU countries. The migrant crisis from the Middle-East was unforeseen, and largely caused by the interventions of George W Bush and Tony Blair a decade or so ago, which the EU in general wanted no part of. The 'war against terror' only produced some more extreme terrorists, as many in the Anti War Campaign warned at the time! You can't really blame these people for wanting to run away from Islamic State etc!

 

[Hobbit]

Why do you consider the EU to be undemocratic and the UK having no power of direction? We have the elected European Parliament and Councils of Ministers, where we have as much influence, probably more, than the other EU countries. The migrant crisis from the Middle-East was unforeseen, and largely caused by the interventions of George W Bush and Tony Blair a decade or so ago, which the EU in general wanted no part of. The 'war against terror' only produced some more extreme terrorists, as many in the Anti War Campaign warned at the time! You can't really blame these people for wanting to run away from Islamic State etc!

Delc, read post 2291, which has a table of EU mandates. It lists how many the UK MEP's opposed and how many were still passed.

There's two things that are blatantly obvious from that. One, it's appears as though we have very little influence in the EU. Secondly, why are we arguing to Stay when it appears we oppose 90% of the proposals?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

It really does not help the Leavers to continue to show/talk about the big number of ££ that goes to the EU every year.
We all know it is a false number, they are doing the 'tell a lie often enough and unwise people will start to believe it'.
A whole campaign built on a lie.

The other thing that puts me right off them is the 'unelected' politicians making decisions in the EU remarks whilst they continue to abuse and embrace the House of Lords in the UK.

 

[Imurg]

Delc, read post 2291, which has a table of EU mandates. It lists how many the UK MEP's opposed and how many were still passed.

There's two things that are blatantly obvious from that. One, it's appears as though we have very little influence in the EU. Secondly, why are we arguing to Stay when it appears we oppose 90% of the proposals?

This and , from what I can see, the fact we appear to pay more for the privilege of EU membership than any other country while getting less back is swaying me to the Leave side. The EU, as far as I can see, is going to become virtually a single nation. That's not what we voted for back in the 70's...and I don't want to part of a Federal Europe..

Both sides continue to spout their propaganda while, I suspect, the vast majority of people who will decide this referendum haven't got a clue as to the consequences, good or bad, of a decision either way because both sides are so wrapped up in fighting each other they've neglected to give the average Joe real information...
"House prices will rise if we leave/stay" - why..? Not saying they won't (they are anyway) but why...? Just blurting out sound bites doesn't inform, it deflects, it clouds the issue.

 

[Foxholer]

The other thing that puts me right off them is the 'unelected' politicians making decisions in the EU remarks whilst they continue to abuse and embrace the House of Lords in the UK.

The whole concept of decision-makers having to be elected - and if they make unpopular decisions, being kicked out by the electorate - is just a nonsense and has only happened in one 1 instance that I recall! Almost every law made in this country is made in a way that is only a little different to the way they are made by the EU!

And my question for the Brexitters is to name some laws that have been made by the EU that have not actually been agreed to in negotiations with the UK!

Btw. I'm a fan of the HoL, though there is definitely some dead wood in there - as there is in The Commons imo! Not only does the HoL provide a healthy sanity check that prevents truly daft legislation being passed, but the whole approach of that House is 'What will be good for the country over the long term' as opposed to the Commons (actually the unelected Cabinet!) approach of 'What will win us the next election'!

 

[Foxholer]

Delc, read post 2291, which has a table of EU mandates. It lists how many the UK MEP's opposed and how many were still passed.

There's two things that are blatantly obvious from that. One, it's appears as though we have very little influence in the EU. Secondly, why are we arguing to Stay when it appears we oppose 90% of the proposals?

Perhaps worth noting that UKIP MEPs dominate the UK contribution to that body, so it's actually surprising that there's not a greater number of 'objections'!

And, of course, those stats are completely 'out of context'! Without knowing what they are, I'd like to see the equivalent stats for other countries! I'm pretty certain they wouldn't actually be all that different - UKIP's anti-EU attitude considered!

 

[delc]

It really does not help the Leavers to continue to show/talk about the big number of ££ that goes to the EU every year.
We all know it is a false number, they are doing the 'tell a lie often enough and unwise people will start to believe it'.
A whole campaign built on a lie.

The other thing that puts me right off them is the 'unelected' politicians making decisions in the EU remarks whilst they continue to abuse and embrace the House of Lords in the UK.

Great Britain became Great by conquering and plundering an Empire right around the World. The Empire has now gone, so we can only make a living by trading. Potentially cutting ourselves off from a large bloc of trading nations within the EU seems a bit silly to me!

 

[Hobbit]

The whole concept of decision-makers having to be elected - and if they make unpopular decisions, being kicked out by the electorate - is just a nonsense and has only happened in one 1 instance that I recall! Almost every law made in this country is made in a way that is only a little different to the way they are made by the EU!

If Gordon Brown had been a popular Prime Minister, and his party had been performing wonderfully well would he/they have been re-elected?

Every change of government from one party to another at election time clearly suggests that having made unpopular decisions/laws doesn't get you elected.

 

[Foxholer]

If Gordon Brown had been a popular Prime Minister, and his party had been performing wonderfully well would he/they have been re-elected?

Every change of government from one party to another at election time clearly suggests that having made unpopular decisions/laws doesn't get you elected.

You've just added to the examples of 'unelected' decision-makers!

Gordon Brown was NEVER actually elected (PM) was he!

 

[ColchesterFC]

Perhaps worth noting that UKIP MEPs dominate the UK contribution to that body, so it's actually surprising that there's not a greater number of 'objections'!

And, of course, those stats are completely 'out of context'! Without knowing what they are, I'd like to see the equivalent stats for other countries! I'm pretty certain they wouldn't actually be all that different - UKIP's anti-EU attitude considered!

I saw one report that said that the stats for Germany were similar to the UK or even slightly higher. For France the stats were way below ours but that was suggested to be because the French simply voted with the majority view most of the time.

 

[Foxholer]

I saw one report that said that the stats for Germany were similar to the UK or even slightly higher. For France the stats were way below ours but that was suggested to be because the French simply voted with the majority view most of the time.

And in that wonderful French way, simply ignore (with a Gallic shrug) any laws that are inconvenient to them - until it becomes inconvenient to do so!