EU Referendum

[Foxholer]

...
Building bigger cities and daft rail/air links seem to be much higher on the agenda, after all the cities are where all the voters live.

Given that Cities are traditionally Labour strongholds, I'd suggest that such action is not 'politically motivated', but 'the right thing to do' - even if they seem somewhat London-centric! It is even be suggested, with quite a bit of evidence, that faster links to London actually encourage people to live away from London

Expansion of UK Air links is desperately needed! It's just a case of where/how!

And Rail links are, similarly, desperately in need of upgrading/improvement! Whether HS2/3 is the answer is debatable, but the Electrification and the London-Kent upgrades have been particular successes imo!

Going OT somewhat, but a particular 'pet desire' of mine....I'd love to see a change in the way freight moves! If it could somehow change from Road based to (predominately) Rail based, then there's be huge benefits imo. Given proper links/hubs, it would mean faster delivery, lower cost and far less road congestion by lorries! Another huge investment that's unlikely to happen, but.....

 

[SocketRocket]

Some concrete examples please! EU Has many Free/Preferential Trade Agreements either already in place or is currently negotiating them. http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/agreements/index_en.htm#_europe

In fact, SE/Australasia and most of the Soviet areas apart, pretty much the entire world is covered!

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2012/june/tradoc_149622.png

And without references for your figures in the earlier post (#2042), I'm inclined to think they were simply manufactured!

Here's another paper (from 2014, but still relevant) I came across that, while 'pro-European but not uncritical', seems to answer the economy queries pretty well! https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/defaul...nts/pdf/2014/pb_britishtrade_16jan14-8285.pdf

I will give you no examples, you are not listening to me I have explained time and time again that I don't wish to have any discussion with you on anything. You have a weird obsession with trolling my every post and it's almost like an oddball obsession with you, it has created a number of bans whereby we have been advised to keep at arms length. Please keep away and I will do the same, otherwise you will just get more of this type of reply.

 

[SocketRocket]

Scotland, Wales and NI's rural areas heavily depend on EU subsidies for farming, [arguably] fishing and development.
Both farming and fishing are devolved matters in the UK, if we leave the EU do you think the UK government will support the lost EU subsidy?

I think not.
Building bigger cities and daft rail/air links seem to be much higher on the agenda, after all the cities are where all the voters live.

If we were not in the EU then arguably the Farming and Fishing Industries would not need subsidies as we would not be trying to create artificially high prices, we could produce and sell our commodities at world prices. If we did need to support and particular industries like 'Steel' then we would be free to do so.

 

[Foxholer]

I will give you no examples, you are not listening to me I have explained time and time again that I don't wish to have any discussion with you on anything. You have a weird obsession with trolling my every post and it's almost like an oddball obsession with you, it has created a number of bans whereby we have been advised to keep at arms length. Please keep away and I will do the same, otherwise you will just get more of this type of reply.

:rofl:

And without references for your figures in the earlier post (#2042), I'm inclined to think they were simply manufactured!

I'll go with this then!

My only 'obsession' is the provision of evidence for statements backing up numbers quoted or opinions specified as facts! Politicians peddle that sort of twaddle as part (indeed almost as a requirement) of their occupation, but I don't believe it's something that should be part of a proper 'debate' - especially given the 'based on honesty' nature of the game that brings members of this forum together!

I have no issues with anyone having a different opinion to me, but would reserve the right to counter that opinion and certainly any statement that I believe is either wrong in fact or uses any sort of statistic in a misleading way! I'm not so intransigent that I can't be convinced to change my opinion, but it takes more than just invented/misused numbers to do so!

Oh. And you are wrong about my 'trolling my every post'!

Edit:
Here endeth the sermon! No reply is needed or expected/wanted! It would only indicate that you are a troll, something I don't currently believe is the case!

 

[SocketRocket]

:rofl:


I'll go with this then!

My only 'obsession' is the provision of evidence for statements backing up numbers quoted or opinions specified as facts! Politicians peddle that sort of twaddle as part (indeed almost as a requirement) of their occupation, but I don't believe it's something that should be part of a proper 'debate' - especially given the 'based on honesty' nature of the game that brings members of this forum together!

I have no issues with anyone having a different opinion to me, but would reserve the right to counter that opinion and certainly any statement that I believe is either wrong in fact or uses any sort of statistic in a misleading way! I'm not so intransigent that I can't be convinced to change my opinion, but it takes more than just invented/misused numbers to do so!

Oh. And you are wrong about my 'trolling my every post'!

Not interested!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Given that Cities are traditionally Labour strongholds, I'd suggest that such action is not 'politically motivated', but 'the right thing to do' - even if they seem somewhat London-centric! It is even be suggested, with quite a bit of evidence, that faster links to London actually encourage people to live away from London

Expansion of UK Air links is desperately needed! It's just a case of where/how!

And Rail links are, similarly, desperately in need of upgrading/improvement! Whether HS2/3 is the answer is debatable, but the Electrification and the London-Kent upgrades have been particular successes imo!

Going OT somewhat, but a particular 'pet desire' of mine....I'd love to see a change in the way freight moves! If it could somehow change from Road based to (predominately) Rail based, then there's be huge benefits imo. Given proper links/hubs, it would mean faster delivery, lower cost and far less road congestion by lorries! Another huge investment that's unlikely to happen, but.....

Re last para........I was pleasantly surprised to find out that any large lorries passing through Switzerland have to drive onto specialised trains for the journey,
Stobbarts have a rail depot at Carlisle which moves containers off/on the lorries.

 

[ColchesterFC]

I think that Jean-Claude Junker's comments today might well prove to be a boost to the Leave campaign. He has said that "Deserters won't be welcomed with open arms" and "that this is not a threat, but our relations will not be as they are today". Unfortunately I think that a "threat" is exactly what some undecided voters will see it as and it could push them towards a vote to leave. I wish these people would think more carefully about how what they say will come across as I am sure he could have made the same point but with phrasing that wouldn't make it sound like a threat. Already there are comments from the Leave campaign that the Remain campaign are moving from "Project Fear" to "Project Threat".

 

[SocketRocket]

True Britain has a global status. One of the pillars of that (and mainly contributing to inward trade) is it unique position of bridge into Europe, a stable economy, a stable govt and strong legal system. You take Britain's bridging position out of play then that inward trade will move elsewhere. Similar story with Hong Kong and China. Why do companies that want to trade with China go thru HK rather an China direct.

Over 75% of the economy is services economy and financial services makes a big part of it. As compared to a manufacturing facility, it is lot easier to move financial services operations out of UK in case of a Brexit. Similar story when some of the firms and banks announced plans to move south of the border in case of a Scottish referendum.

The British economy as a whole is the 5th largest, but with another scottish referendum, it will grow smaller.

True the EU share of the world trade has gone down (but not in terminal decline). However that masks the the fact that the EU has grown bigger at the same time by including smaller economies. So the average is bound to come down. Also this referendum is not about 'joining' the EU and therefore diluting our current position, but about staying in and getting stronger

There are rational figures that can poke holes in either side, but this thread wont swing any votes..

Financial services are not in the UK by some random reason. They are there because of the great expertise we have in this market sector and is not dependant on us being in the EU.

There will not be another Scottish referendum for a long time, The Scottish Parliament don't want independence now as it would be ruinous for their economy but more to the point the UK Government don't need to hold one.

You say this referendum is about staying in the EU and getting stronger. How does that work? The EU is a shrinking trading power, it will take in a number of countries with basket case economies in the future, it will continue to make decisions that we have no control over, we will have to accept ever higher levels of uncontrolled immigration that our service cannot cope with and will bring a long term drain on our finances. Europe will continue to create subsidised high prices that pushes up the cost of living for the EU population. If overseas investment in the UK is only to produce a bridge into the EU then why are they not doing it in countries within the EU with lower labour rates? I believe that investment has been made due to our expertise and would continue to be so. For example, Tata owns Jaguar Landrover and exports huge amounts of cars to countries like China.

 

[SocketRocket]

How desperate has Osbourne become. He now stands on a platform with Vince Cable which is bad enough but also with ED BALLS, yes, ED BALLS. You really couldn't make it up, this is the man Osbourne was accusing of being involved in the Libor rate fixing scandal and completely dissing his ability in the Treasury and now he is a brother in arms. This is a new low, even better than Cameron with his bessies Kinnockio and Pantsdown.

:rofl:

 

[Doon frae Troon]

That's it...the killer blow against Leave.

Not WW2 or WW3, not immigration, jobs, money, defense, isolation, terrorism, NHS, REF2, overcrowding or unelected politicians.




House prices in London will fall if we leave says Chancellor.

 

[MegaSteve]

That's it...the killer blow against Leave.

Not WW2 or WW3, not immigration, jobs, money, defense, isolation, terrorism, NHS, REF2, overcrowding or unelected politicians.




House prices in London will fall if we leave says Chancellor.

Will this see the SNP drawn to swapping to Brexit?

As they are so desperate to punish Londoners...

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Will this see the SNP drawn to swapping to Brexit?

As they are so desperate to punish Londoners...

No...House prices in Scotland will fall as well but we are not so obsessed with them.

FYI..It is Scotland that is firmly for staying in, not just the SNP.

 

[jp5]

Osborne giving hope to millions of young people claiming that house prices will fall by 20%.

 

[PJ87]

That's it...the killer blow against Leave.

Not WW2 or WW3, not immigration, jobs, money, defense, isolation, terrorism, NHS, REF2, overcrowding or unelected politicians.




House prices in London will fall if we leave says Chancellor.

whilst I wouldnt like to see prices fall if they fall by 2k average thats like a fart in the wind really isnt it.. you would make double if not more than that back in the next year rise

Im personally pro stay but I think its a stupid argument to throw out the house prices

 

[vkurup]

Financial services are not in the UK by some random reason. They are there because of the great expertise we have in this market sector and is not dependant on us being in the EU.

There will not be another Scottish referendum for a long time, The Scottish Parliament don't want independence now as it would be ruinous for their economy but more to the point the UK Government don't need to hold one.

You say this referendum is about staying in the EU and getting stronger. How does that work? The EU is a shrinking trading power, it will take in a number of countries with basket case economies in the future, it will continue to make decisions that we have no control over, we will have to accept ever higher levels of uncontrolled immigration that our service cannot cope with and will bring a long term drain on our finances. Europe will continue to create subsidised high prices that pushes up the cost of living for the EU population. If overseas investment in the UK is only to produce a bridge into the EU then why are they not doing it in countries within the EU with lower labour rates? I believe that investment has been made due to our expertise and would continue to be so. For example, Tata owns Jaguar Landrover and exports huge amounts of cars to countries like China.

I agree we have the expertise. But not all of it is home grown. A large percentage of that expertise is also made of the 'immigrant' population who is attracted to the lifestyle and career opportunities. I think everyone thinks of immigrants as someone who is unwelcome and will sponge off the state. We forget that the UK is also home to a very large highly skilled immigrant community who have roots here. This community also has ability to relocate and work elsewhere if the opportunities disappear. UK will lose skills that is needed. We have lost skills in the past when industries have shut down. Steel is another classic case. I am not talking about Jobber Joe, but there are some key skills in the industry that will disappear if we keep losing factories. If you dont factories then you cant get apprentices which means you wont train the next generation. Wasn't Manchester the global powerhouse and center of the world when cotton was king less than a century ago. I am not saying London will decline on the mid night of June 23rd. It will be a slow and steady erosion.

How do i feel about immigration.. i find the debate interesting and muddled up by the politicians who can twist everything to their advantage. I too can be classified as an 'immigrant' - though I chose to think I am more of a global citizen as I worked in about 7-8 countries before settling down in the UK. Both of us work hard, never had to use any social services in the time we have been here. The amount of taxes we pay helps many people to sit on their backside and watch Jeremy Kyle all day on their 60' plasma. So will we relocate in case of a Brexit?? The real answer is dont know. In the short term, the answer is no. however in the long term, if the opportunities that allow us to florish in the UK disappear or reduce then we may equally consider moving back to Australia or the US. I am assuming that with both of us with two masters degrees and a wealth of exposure in our respective fields (technology and medicine) will be welcome into other countries. I MUST point out that this is not to say anyone is disloyal or a 'deserter' but to say that global talent is far more mobile than we think it is and it will chase the right opportunity so that it can florish. At the moment, UK within a EU helps the technology sector and our clients to be competitive. If our clients suffer, we suffer.

The 2nd Scottish referendum is bound to happen in case of a Brexit. I agree that with the current low oil prices it is not the right time. Slippery SNP has already said that if things change fundamentally then they will go for a referendum. The 'once in a generation' is an eyewash. Will the Scots choose to stay in the UK if UK is not part of EU.. no one can predict the answer

while UK is part of the EU and we have had some terribly stupid laws that have been imposed, as long as we stay away from the monetary union (as we are today), we will continue to thrive (as we are today). EU subsidies have been helping the farming and fishing industries. Yes, we could do better at saving the steel industry. EU regulations allow countries to provide subsidies to industries which are of national importance - the UK govt CHOSE not invoke that during the steel crisis. Lets not mix facts with emotion.

Location strategy for putting up manufacturing plants is complicated and mixes politics, economics, emotions et al. Tata owns Jaguar Land Rover and is CURRENTLY only manufactured here. The demand for JLR is terrific and they have already announced plans to open new factories in Brazil (this year) and Slovakia (2018). In the auto industry it is not uncommon to see sites compete for business against each other (we have seen it with Vauxhall). There is nothing stopping Tata to move production from UK to anywhere else if the economics demands. Burburry a British brand (favoured by WAGS and CHAVS) prides itself on its british history, but moved its production to China to meet demand. Bentley is talking about China production. As the world gets more integrated; talent, money and jobs will follow where it is best suited for them to flourish.

I must say that I have nothing against those who want to vote for Leave. As long as they believe that emotionally that is where Britain is best placed. This is equally true for the Remain ones. Currently the rational bit of the argument however seem to favour the Remain one.

 

[jp5]

Most sane people have no problem with immigrants. The issue is purely numbers - expanding our population by a million people every few years whilst the government cutting spending on houses and services.

If the gov spent the additional taxes collected from migrants there wouldn't be enough heat in the argument to have a referendum.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

vkurup.......Ref2 is much more likely to happen over the 'Bill of Rights' than leaving the EU.
I know both are linked but Westminster [Boris/Nigel] cannot invoke the 'Bill of Rights' unless it has the support of the NI and Scottish parliaments.
Interesting times ahead.

 

[SocketRocket]

I agree we have the expertise. But not all of it is home grown. A large percentage of that expertise is also made of the 'immigrant' population who is attracted to the lifestyle and career opportunities. I think everyone thinks of immigrants as someone who is unwelcome and will sponge off the state. We forget that the UK is also home to a very large highly skilled immigrant community who have roots here. This community also has ability to relocate and work elsewhere if the opportunities disappear. UK will lose skills that is needed. We have lost skills in the past when industries have shut down. Steel is another classic case. I am not talking about Jobber Joe, but there are some key skills in the industry that will disappear if we keep losing factories. If you dont factories then you cant get apprentices which means you wont train the next generation. Wasn't Manchester the global powerhouse and center of the world when cotton was king less than a century ago. I am not saying London will decline on the mid night of June 23rd. It will be a slow and steady erosion.

How do i feel about immigration.. i find the debate interesting and muddled up by the politicians who can twist everything to their advantage. I too can be classified as an 'immigrant' - though I chose to think I am more of a global citizen as I worked in about 7-8 countries before settling down in the UK. Both of us work hard, never had to use any social services in the time we have been here. The amount of taxes we pay helps many people to sit on their backside and watch Jeremy Kyle all day on their 60' plasma. So will we relocate in case of a Brexit?? The real answer is dont know. In the short term, the answer is no. however in the long term, if the opportunities that allow us to florish in the UK disappear or reduce then we may equally consider moving back to Australia or the US. I am assuming that with both of us with two masters degrees and a wealth of exposure in our respective fields (technology and medicine) will be welcome into other countries. I MUST point out that this is not to say anyone is disloyal or a 'deserter' but to say that global talent is far more mobile than we think it is and it will chase the right opportunity so that it can florish. At the moment, UK within a EU helps the technology sector and our clients to be competitive. If our clients suffer, we suffer.

The 2nd Scottish referendum is bound to happen in case of a Brexit. I agree that with the current low oil prices it is not the right time. Slippery SNP has already said that if things change fundamentally then they will go for a referendum. The 'once in a generation' is an eyewash. Will the Scots choose to stay in the UK if UK is not part of EU.. no one can predict the answer

while UK is part of the EU and we have had some terribly stupid laws that have been imposed, as long as we stay away from the monetary union (as we are today), we will continue to thrive (as we are today). EU subsidies have been helping the farming and fishing industries. Yes, we could do better at saving the steel industry. EU regulations allow countries to provide subsidies to industries which are of national importance - the UK govt CHOSE not invoke that during the steel crisis. Lets not mix facts with emotion.

Location strategy for putting up manufacturing plants is complicated and mixes politics, economics, emotions et al. Tata owns Jaguar Land Rover and is CURRENTLY only manufactured here. The demand for JLR is terrific and they have already announced plans to open new factories in Brazil (this year) and Slovakia (2018). In the auto industry it is not uncommon to see sites compete for business against each other (we have seen it with Vauxhall). There is nothing stopping Tata to move production from UK to anywhere else if the economics demands. Burburry a British brand (favoured by WAGS and CHAVS) prides itself on its british history, but moved its production to China to meet demand. Bentley is talking about China production. As the world gets more integrated; talent, money and jobs will follow where it is best suited for them to flourish.

I must say that I have nothing against those who want to vote for Leave. As long as they believe that emotionally that is where Britain is best placed. This is equally true for the Remain ones. Currently the rational bit of the argument however seem to favour the Remain one.

If I tried to reply like for line we would be getting into a rather long debate that is not suited to a Forum like this. To address a few items I would comment:

I respect your situation but immigration does not create a tax surplus over time. The longer immigrants live here the more they cost just like the UK born. No one is saying immigration is bad for the country but many are saying it needs to be controlled so as to attract the skills the country needs and reject those without them. You mention Australia and the USA who do exactly that.

You say that if we stay in the EU we will continue to thrive as today. Why do you attribute this to the EU? Most EU countries are economies are not thriving, quite the opposite, look at unemployment rates and especially for young people. The EU is not a mechanism that creates thriving economies, I would say ours is doing well irrespective of the EU. The EU does make subsidies to certain sectors and particularly with the CAP. What they do is create artificially high prices to protect inefficient farming so that it's not affected by lower World Prices. This means the EU populace has to pay higher food prices, subsidies are not good for people if they are long term and blocks out poor countries outside the cartel from selling to us. When you talk about the EU helping business and industry remember there is no such thing as EU money, only our money that is being given back to us.

Regarding another Scottish referendum on independence. Thats over for now and I explained that it's not in their interest, also the UK Government does not need to hold another one. Scotland can demand one but it's up to the UK Government of which they are part to decide if they get it.

The UK out of the EU will be able to trade with the World and that includes Europe. The EU will still want to sell to us on favourable terms and to do so will need to allow us access to their market. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks otherwise. We will also be able to offer our goods Tariff free around the World, if our products are good and what people want then we will be able to sell them. It's just market forces and supplying to the demand.

The EU is not democratic and we cannot affect it's onward journey towards a Single State. Those that say we are better of sitting at the table and influencing the decisions are IMO deluded to the way things work. just look at the pathetic results of our Government trying to get a few concessions on issues like EU immigration and you will see that we are defenceless and will have to accept whatever is thrown at us.

I cannot see how the rational argument is to stay. To me the main case to Remain is made by people either running scared or by very big rich institutions that have no national identity and are only really concerned that the UK leaving may put stress on their cartels. As a Briton/Englishman I have great faith in our people and believe they deserve better than what they are currently being conned into.

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

That's it...the killer blow against Leave.

Not WW2 or WW3, not immigration, jobs, money, defense, isolation, terrorism, NHS, REF2, overcrowding or unelected politicians.




House prices in London will fall if we leave says Chancellor.

Seems a killer blow to the Remain campaign is the EU plans to ditch the NHS.

 

[MegaSteve]

No...House prices in Scotland will fall as well but we are not so obsessed with them.

The obsession being that our kids can no longer afford homes in 'the smoke'...