EU elections

[Deleted member 1418]

There's that much spin being put on it here I'm beginning to think Alistair Campbell has about 4 forum ID's.

I think he has at least 8.......!! 😉😂😂

And for a Man Utd fan AC sure loves Burnley loads!!! 😂😂😂

 

[SocketRocket]

First thing I don’t really agree with “The People” - it’s the majority of the people who voted - by saying the people it suggests the full population. It’s possible that the majority could now be in favour of staying in - could that be their “will”

But imo governments every year ignore what people want and yes that also involves not carrying out promised manifestos

The “establishment” imo as a majority are just self serving - could I give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they are doing what they thing is best for the UK even if people don’t agree with it ? Maybe

But for me right now our establishment is the laughing stock of world politics- they embarrass me and I have no doubt countries are just looking at us and laughing at the complete mess we are in and the determination to make it worse on a daily basis. I can’t predict the future but I fear for it if we keep going the way we are doing. People dream of the UK being this powerhouse empire on its own - I really hope for the sake of us all those dreams are realised.

Do people really dream that, really! "Powerhouse empire on it's own"

 

[Hacker Khan]

Re: the first bit in bold - the main conflicting thing that the majority want is to remain so it's no surprise that they aren't carrying out their duty.

Re: the second bit in bold - Do you have any facts or evidence to back up that statement? Not forecasts or predictions but actual real facts? We were told before the referendum that a vote to leave would ruin the economy - emergency budget, hundreds of thousands of job losses etc - but none of it happened, so how can you state as a fact that it will happen in the event of a WTO exit?

No we were not. At best/worst we were told that Brexiting would cause damage to our economy. And as we have not Brexited and are still in the EU who knows if that will be true or not.

And as for having facts about what will happen then it is impossible, all you can get is forecasts/estimates/predictions. You then use your intelligence to decide whether to believe them or not, whether the person or organisation making the predictions is credible and an expert in that field or is a chancer with a vested interest in saying what they are..

 

[Tashyboy]

I just fail to understand how so many can convince themselves that asking for another referendum is acceptable. When the government asked the general public to make a decision on whether we stayed or left the EU then any right thinking person would expect the result to be carried out. Just imagine if the result had been the same majority to stay but politicians did their upmost to reverse the decision, how would Remainers feel about that? The arguement to support a second referendum that we know so much more now is just another ploy to thwart the democratic decision, all we know now that we didn't then is how conniving and self deceiving Remainers can be .

You post about a No Deal Brexit ruining the economy as though this is a given, even the BOE suggest we would still have positive growth and people like Mervyn King says we should ignore these unjustifiable stories. It is just as easy to suggest a future in the EU would be a disaster for our economy.

A very well written piece, and the first sentance is something I to cannot understand. Unfortunately as I have said many times before, it is an arguement that many remainers will convieneantly ignore.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

A very well written piece, and the first sentance is something I to cannot understand. Unfortunately as I have said many times before, it is an arguement that many remainers will convieneantly ignore.

The problem with “the Leavers” (and I include myself in that) is our position is not clarified, the Referendum was quite clear, ie Yes or No, but what Leave actually means is now worse than ever.
Is it
Leave, No Deal.
Leave, Bad Deal.
Leave, Any Deal.

If we do have another Referendum (God Forbid) then the only options should be how we leave, there should not be a remain option on it.

It’s alright having a go at Remainers, but Leavers aren’t exactly singing from the same song sheet.

 

[ColchesterFC]

No we were not. At best/worst we were told that Brexiting would cause damage to our economy. And as we have not Brexited and are still in the EU who knows if that will be true or not.

Yes, we were...........

"Year long recession". "Up to 820000 jobs lost in two years". "A leave vote would cause an immediate and profound economic shock". "House prices hit by 10%". "Households £4300 per year worse off".

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564

EDIT - "£15 billion in tax rises". "Increase in fuel and alcohol duty".

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ole-in-public-finance-if-uk-votes-to-leave-eu

 

[Taz]

More can kicking

https://twitter.com/x/status/1132952429274828800

 

[Grant85]

Had a look and can’t see which one you are talking about - do you have a link ?

Going on numbers, 37.9% will look the same on a bar chart as double the Brexit Bar plus the Green bar. Clearly if you were to double the Brexit bar and add the Green bar it would be well past the SNP bar.
Also, look at the difference between Brexit Party and Lib Dems... 0.8% difference.
The difference between Labour and the Greens is only 1%, but looks a much bigger gap back to the Greens.

Subtle, may be accidental. But not great. Surely you put the numbers into your software / spreadsheet. Press the button and copy / paste your bar chart. Surely would be far more difficult to make a mistake.

 

[Hobbit]

The problem with “the Leavers” (and I include myself in that) is our position is not clarified, the Referendum was quite clear, ie Yes or No, but what Leave actually means is now worse than ever.
Is it
Leave, No Deal.
Leave, Bad Deal.
Leave, Any Deal.

If we do have another Referendum (God Forbid) then the only options should be how we leave, there should not be a remain option on it.

It’s alright having a go at Remainers, but Leavers aren’t exactly singing from the same song sheet.

You're right, all the different versions of Leave weren't truly defined. And that's something that's been hammered out to Joe Public for a very long time.

But here's a thought; what is Remain? We know all about the status quo and the history of what the EU has 'given' the UK. But what will be the EU when the Lisbon Treaty is fully implemented? What will it be if the EU army comes to fruition, and what will be the changes to the Security and Defence Policy? What will be the new budget, and will the EU force through the ending of the rebate by the upcoming new rules on qualified majority rather than unanimous?

The future after a Leave scenario is very uncertain but I'd be tempted to suggest Remain in the EU, driven by a Macron, won't be the same either.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Going on numbers, 37.9% will look the same on a bar chart as double the Brexit Bar plus the Green bar. Clearly if you were to double the Brexit bar and add the Green bar it would be well past the SNP bar.
Also, look at the difference between Brexit Party and Lib Dems... 0.8% difference.
The difference between Labour and the Greens is only 1%, but looks a much bigger gap back to the Greens.

Subtle, may be accidental. But not great. Surely you put the numbers into your software / spreadsheet. Press the button and copy / paste your bar chart. Surely would be far more difficult to make a mistake.

Sorry I’m not sure what the problem is with the chart above ? Are the figures wrong or something ?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

You're right, all the different versions of Leave weren't truly defined. And that's something that's been hammered out to Joe Public for a very long time.

But here's a thought; what is Remain? We know all about the status quo and the history of what the EU has 'given' the UK. But what will be the EU when the Lisbon Treaty is fully implemented? What will it be if the EU army comes to fruition, and what will be the changes to the Security and Defence Policy? What will be the new budget, and will the EU force through the ending of the rebate by the upcoming new rules on qualified majority rather than unanimous?

The future after a Leave scenario is very uncertain but I'd be tempted to suggest Remain in the EU, driven by a Macron, won't be the same either.

No disagreement from me Bri, apart from the obnoxious reply of why should we worry about what “Remain” is, we voted out.

 

[Grant85]

Sorry I’m not sure what the problem is with the chart above ? Are the figures wrong or something ?

The bars do not accurately represent the numbers.

As I said, subtle. But doesn't paint the picture the way a bar chart should - as a clear visual representation.

 

[Twire]

Sorry I’m not sure what the problem is with the chart above ? Are the figures wrong or something ?

I think he's saying the length of the coloured bars is not accurate.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The bars do not accurately represent the numbers.

As I said, subtle. But doesn't paint the picture the way a bar chart should - as a clear visual representation.

Is that all ? Blimey I thought so big issue or crime was committed by the Beeb. It’s just a chart that shows to me Brexit Party got a lot more than the others which were quite close, I wouldn’t have thought too many would look too much beyond the figures - but then it is Brexit and people are dragging it down and dissecting down to the finite details.

 

[Taz]

https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...ith-their-new-party-at-the-next-election.html

 

[Grant85]

I just fail to understand how so many can convince themselves that asking for another referendum is acceptable. When the government asked the general public to make a decision on whether we stayed or left the EU then any right thinking person would expect the result to be carried out. Just imagine if the result had been the same majority to stay but politicians did their upmost to reverse the decision, how would Remainers feel about that? The arguement to support a second referendum that we know so much more now is just another ploy to thwart the democratic decision, all we know now that we didn't then is how conniving and self deceiving Remainers can be .

You post about a No Deal Brexit ruining the economy as though this is a given, even the BOE suggest we would still have positive growth and people like Mervyn King says we should ignore these unjustifiable stories. It is just as easy to suggest a future in the EU would be a disaster for our economy.

Ultimately if the Government had found an acceptable solution that their own party could at least vote for - then we wouldn't be in this position. We'd have left in March. And I fully agree, it should have been up to the government to deliver on the referendum and clearly a second referendum should not be required.

Personally, referendums should happen only when a governing party has sought and won a mandate for one at an election. Clearly that wouldn't be the case here.

But - we are where are.

What would be your solution?

There is only 1 solution that delivers on the referendum result and doesn't cut NI adrift - which is staying in the Single Market - like Norway and Switzerland - neither of whom are EU members.
No deal means a hard border on the Island of Ireland.
the Withdrawal Agreement would likely lead to a border in the Irish sea, via the backstop.

So what is your least worst option?

 

[Grant85]

Is that all ? Blimey I thought so big issue or crime was committed by the Beeb. It’s just a chart that shows to me Brexit Party got a lot more than the others which were quite close, I wouldn’t have thought too many would look too much beyond the figures - but then it is Brexit and people are dragging it down and dissecting down to the finite details.

If it's such a minor issue, why not just use an accurate bar chart?
As I said, surely much more difficult to generate an incorrect one.

 

[Mudball]

 

[SocketRocket]

Ultimately if the Government had found an acceptable solution that their own party could at least vote for - then we wouldn't be in this position. We'd have left in March. And I fully agree, it should have been up to the government to deliver on the referendum and clearly a second referendum should not be required.

Personally, referendums should happen only when a governing party has sought and won a mandate for one at an election. Clearly that wouldn't be the case here.

But - we are where are.

What would be your solution?

There is only 1 solution that delivers on the referendum result and doesn't cut NI adrift - which is staying in the Single Market - like Norway and Switzerland - neither of whom are EU members.
No deal means a hard border on the Island of Ireland.
the Withdrawal Agreement would likely lead to a border in the Irish sea, via the backstop.

So what is your least worst option?

The problem IMO is that our negotiators have been hamstrung due to the calls to take No Deal off the table and the weakness of the way May has carried out negotiations. This is aggravated by MPs working against the democratic vote.

We should have insisted that the withdraw agreement and future trade arrangements were negotiated together and should not be seperated. If we had already agreed a Free Trade Arrangement then the problems with the Irish border would be negated. We also have the leverage of how and when we pay the withdraw settlement. I dont believe there would ever be the No Deal that so many fear as it's in all parties interest to maintain trade, we keep hearing scare stories suggesting that all trade would cease and we would never see a lettuce or toilet roll again, it's all project fear and rather condescending propaganda.

 

[larmen]

View attachment 27401

Therefore the clear mandate for a no deal Brexit is only 32%, just under that even. You can’t add the 3% from UKIP to it, and the 9% from the conservatives, who all ran on a deal Brexit, either.
That’s well down from the 52% we are always told want a No Deal Brexit for the last 3 years now.