Ed Miliband and the Labour Party

[Ethan]

I think that ignoring the growing population as a reason for the NHS being under pressure is avoiding the 'Elephant in the room' Our population has increased by almost 10 million people in a relatively short period and continues to increase at a rate that just has to create pressure on services. We do indeed have an ageing population due to increased post WW2 birth rates but as our population increases at the current level, not only through immigration but high birth rates these people will age and add significantly to the problem.

If I take my local GP group surgery for example: Not long ago it was possible to walk in and see a Doctor within the hour, it is now almost impossible to arrange a future appointment, you are asked to ring in at 8:am to arrange an appointment that day. My experience of this is its pot luck, you ring and just get an engaged tone as everyone is trying to do the same. No wonder people turn up at A&E with minor ailments. Why has this happened, there is actually one more Doctor in the practice, is it due to the NHS barmy initiatives and structures or just overload!

This problem is also there in our schools and demand for housing so whats the answer? Voting in a Labour government, borrowing more money, sacking bureaucrats, pumping up the population further or blaming the Daily Mail!

The issue of growing population is not a problem per se so long as the tax base increases proportionally, and keeps it in balance. The NHS is funded out of public taxation, so more people paying more tax provides more funding. The ageing of the population is a problem, as, despite being generally healthier for their age than people used to be, older people still consume more healthcare. You are wrong on the demographics - immigrants of working age and with young families actually help balance that shifting age demographic, and many will return to their original countries before getting to that point of high consumption. As an aside, health tourism is such a small issue as to be essentially inconsequential.

HM Govt have created this problem of pressure on GP appointments by loading GPs up with all sorts of rubbish to do, as well as increasing expectations of patients. Most of the GPs I know (and I know quite a few) would quit if they could. The number of medical students opting for GP is dropping like a stone.

Did you hear David Cameron say that one of the effects of creating weekend GP appointments will be to lose the same number during the week? No, nor did I.

 

[SocketRocket]

The issue of growing population is not a problem per se so long as the tax base increases proportionally, and keeps it in balance. The NHS is funded out of public taxation, so more people paying more tax provides more funding. The ageing of the population is a problem, as, despite being generally healthier for their age than people used to be, older people still consume more healthcare. You are wrong on the demographics - immigrants of working age and with young families actually help balance that shifting age demographic, and many will return to their original countries before getting to that point of high consumption. As an aside, health tourism is such a small issue as to be essentially inconsequential.

HM Govt have created this problem of pressure on GP appointments by loading GPs up with all sorts of rubbish to do, as well as increasing expectations of patients. Most of the GPs I know (and I know quite a few) would quit if they could. The number of medical students opting for GP is dropping like a stone.

Did you hear David Cameron say that one of the effects of creating weekend GP appointments will be to lose the same number during the week? No, nor did I.

Its not that simple. many immigrants are low paid so pay little tax and often their benefits like working tax credits, child tax credits, family allowance and housing allowance can total more than their wages. Also the lazy British people who wont do these low paid jobs have to be taken into account.

In the area I live there are a great deal of Eastern Europeans and I notice lately that there are also a number of older ones, I can only guess they can also claim housing allowance and pension credit. I still cant accept that its reasonable for this country to absorb 250,000 additional people each year, I cant even contemplate what that number looks like. I live in a medium size town of 30,000 souls, so the equivalent of eight times that number net arrive here

 

[Ethan]

Its not that simple. many immigrants are low paid so pay little tax and often their benefits like working tax credits, child tax credits, family allowance and housing allowance can total more than their wages. Also the lazy British people who wont do these low paid jobs have to be taken into account.

In the area I live there are a great deal of Eastern Europeans and I notice lately that there are also a number of older ones, I can only guess they can also claim housing allowance and pension credit. I still cant accept that its reasonable for this country to absorb 250,000 additional people each year, I cant even contemplate what that number looks like. I live in a medium size town of 30,000 souls, so the equivalent of eight times that number net arrive here

It is that simple really. The equation is tax receipts and other positive effects on the economy versus cost of healthcare and other payments, or put another way, people contributing versus people consuming. No doubt there are some low earners and older people among immigrants, but there are also a lot of people earning decent wages who are not consuming much healthcare or drawing benefits, and they are often doing a job that the feckless local patriots need done but won't do themselves. The idea that there are hordes of immigrants just here to get benefits is simply untrue. Check the recent UCL report on the net effect of immigration.

The country can easily accept a lot more than 250,000 more people. OK, perhaps not all of them should go to your town.

 

[Foxholer]

...Check the recent UCL report on the net effect of immigration.

A Classic pair of Newspaper headlines about that report...

The Telegraph: "Immigration from outside Europe 'cost £120 billion' "

The Guardian: "UK gains £20bn from European migrants, UCL economists reveal"

 

[SocketRocket]

It is that simple really. The equation is tax receipts and other positive effects on the economy versus cost of healthcare and other payments, or put another way, people contributing versus people consuming. No doubt there are some low earners and older people among immigrants, but there are also a lot of people earning decent wages who are not consuming much healthcare or drawing benefits, and they are often doing a job that the feckless local patriots need done but won't do themselves. The idea that there are hordes of immigrants just here to get benefits is simply untrue. Check the recent UCL report on the net effect of immigration.

The country can easily accept a lot more than 250,000 more people. OK, perhaps not all of them should go to your town.

Another cheap dig rather than stick to the subject.


The UCL report. That would be from the same person that said we would only get 13,000 immigrants from Eastern Europe each year. The report was also flawed as it never dialled in the cost of keeping current British people on the dole rather than doing these jobs but you seem to ignore my point that we don't have the infrastructure to support this current increase in population.

Regarding the country being able to absorb these numbers, is that a personal opinion or something you can justify?

See! It's easy to debate a subject without silly comments!

 

[delc]

Getting back to the subject. I have no problems with Ed Milliband. With him as leader of the Labour Party, they have no chance of getting elected at the next election, which suits me just fine. I am old enough to have lived through three Labour Governments and they have all been disasters as far as the UK economy is concerned. Even the Monster Raving Loony Party would probably do a better job!

 

[SocketRocket]

He's got something else to think about this morning. Although! maybe it's just all those stupid people and protestors again!

 

[Tashyboy]

Getting back to the subject. I have no problems with Ed Milliband. With him as leader of the Labour Party, they have no chance of getting elected at the next election, which suits me just fine. I am old enough to have lived through three Labour Governments and they have all been disasters as far as the UK economy is concerned. Even the Monster Raving Loony Party would probably do a better job!

delc having said that (and I agree with you) are the tories the answer ? Tory/ lib dem coalition? Labour ? Labour/ UKIP coalition?. At this moment in time I don't think that joe Public has much of a standout choice with any of them

 

[SocketRocket]

delc having said that (and I agree with you) are the tories the answer ? Tory/ lib dem coalition? Labour ? Labour/ UKIP coalition?. At this moment in time I don't think that joe Public has much of a standout choice with any of them

It may well be more of a Tory/UKIP coalition as IMO UKIP will have very little in common with Labour.

In saying this the general election may well turn out to be an ugliest baby competition with a result that no one will like.

 

[Tashyboy]

Emily thornburys comments re house in Rochester may well be the equivalent of Gordon Browns Ill timed comments of a few years ago which was the final nail in the coffin re labours attempts to govern then and now.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

He's got something else to think about this morning. Although! maybe it's just all those stupid people and protestors again!

Still another deflected MP though isn't it

When they have a true elected MP of their own people might stand up and take notice

 

[Adi2Dassler]

Emily Thornbury sums up the current Labour party perfectly, and shines a light on why so many folk in England feel the need to vote for the likes of UKIP.The Labour party has abandoned working class folk for the liberal elite who pervade coffee shops and private schooling within the M25.

As for her proclamations she was raised in a council estate...really? Her dad was a professor at Kings College who went onto be deputy sec general at the UN! Not sure she lived in a council estate as anyone on here would know.

SNP/UKIP are going to set off a political bomb next May like we've never seen before.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Still another deflected MP though isn't it

When they have a true elected MP of their own people might stand up and take notice

Could be too late by then.

I am reasonably certain that whilst the level of support for UKIP at the forthcoming General Election will be less than at the last three By-elections it will remain strong enough for them to secure seats currently held by each of the two major national parties.

Couple that with the potential for significant gains in Scotland by the SNP at the expense of Labour and the outcome is looking, as my old Dad might have said, "like a right bugger's muddle".

It continues to surprise me that many within the Labour Party continue to see UKIP as solely a problem for the Conservatives when the figures in Clacton, Rochester and Middleton clearly suggest otherwise.

 

[Adi2Dassler]

It continues to surprise me that many within the Labour Party continue to see UKIP as solely a problem for the Conservatives when the figures in Clacton, Rochester and Middleton clearly suggest otherwise.

UKIP are prospering to the detriment of Labour/LibDems.

Libdem voters moving to Tory
Tory/Labour moving to UKIP
No one moving to Labour/Libdem

A combination of being out of touch with their roots as a party and having a seriously unelectable leader will be the end of Labour I think.The SNP will crush them in Scotland and tory/ukip will crush them in England.I have no clue if anyone in Wales votes or just gets told what to do.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Could be too late by then.

I am reasonably certain that whilst the level of support for UKIP at the forthcoming General Election will be less than at the last three By-elections it will remain strong enough for them to secure seats currently held by each of the two major national parties.

Couple that with the potential for significant gains in Scotland by the SNP at the expense of Labour and the outcome is looking, as my old Dad might have said, "like a right bugger's muddle".

It continues to surprise me that many within the Labour Party continue to see UKIP as solely a problem for the Conservatives when the figures in Clacton, Rochester and Middleton clearly suggest otherwise.

I still believe that when it comes to the crunch and come the General election people will vote the same as they normally do

I do not expect anything from UKIP in England unless they actually show some solid consistent policies which actually have some substance and something more than just "anti EU "

Certainly a few bloody noses at the moment but can't see anything more than that

Also to dismiss labour in Scotland especially after the Independent vote would be a bit foolish right now - maybe with Salmond there but not with Sturgeon

One thing I do believe will also happen - a very low turnout again

 

[Foxholer]

Hard-Core Labour areas would vote Labour even if a Golf Ball was the Party Leader!

(New) Labour has to differentiate itself from the other Parties sufficiently to make gains. I don't believe that's going to happen (Thornbury's disaster demonstrates how similar the candidates, if perhaps not the Party, really are!) and it looks like they'll lose seats in Scotland - due to the 'classic Scottish problem' of fighting amongst themselves! Much as I detest the guy, Broon as Leader of Labour Scotland would make a lot of sense - at least for the General Election!

Conservatives need to jump on UKIP being a 'single aim, single spokesman' Party and demonstrate that many of their statements are just appealing to prejudice rather than logic. Too little has been made of the confirmation that Benefits don't need to be paid to EU economic migrants - they need to be self sufficient - for example. They also need to demonstrate that what they said they'd do - reduce the deficit - they actually achieved! For all the pain of their 'austerity measures' the deficit continues to increase! Though it's not as bad as France or Germany's and nowhere near as bad as Italy's or Greece's!

Lib-Dems will lose seats too imo, as they haven't demonstrated that they have really influenced Government sufficiently. Again, that's a PR issue rather than a 'reality' one!

It's going to be another 'Presidential' style election though, something I really don't like!

 

[Foxholer]

Btw. Just seen Dennis Skinner's 'Welcome' to Reckless (and Carswell) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30141159

Excellent old-style stuff! :rofl:

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I still believe that when it comes to the crunch and come the General election people will vote the same as they normally do

I do not expect anything from UKIP in England unless they actually show some solid consistent policies which actually have some substance and something more than just "anti EU "

Certainly a few bloody noses at the moment but can't see anything more than that

Also to dismiss labour in Scotland especially after the Independent vote would be a bit foolish right now - maybe with Salmond there but not with Sturgeon

One thing I do believe will also happen - a very low turnout again

From what I have read it seems that Ms Sturgeon may have a broader appeal in Scotland than Salmond. I can certainly seeSNP gaining as many as 20 seats at the expense of Labour.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

From what I have read it seems that Ms Sturgeon may have a broader appeal in Scotland than Salmond. I can certainly seeSNP gaining as many as 20 seats at the expense of Labour.

She has just won the Politician of the year Award in Scotland and picked a pretty impressive cabinet, sorted out a few of Salmond's underachievers.

The way the wind is blowing I can see Milliband as PM and Salmond as Deputy PM after the 2015 election.

 

[Foxholer]

She has just won the Politician of the year Award in Scotland and picked a pretty impressive cabinet, sorted out a few of Salmond's underachievers.

...

I'm not sure that's something to be proud of! Sort of equivalent to 'Best Reality TV....<anything>' or 'Best Jeremy Kyle Fight' (he's a very nice guy 'in the flesh' and a pretty good golfer - once he warms up!)!