Does skycaddie tell what club to take ?

[Imurg]

The argument for not allowing GPS in Competitions doesn't really stand up.

If the case is that an advantage is gained only by those who can afford it, then surely there is an advantage to be had from being able to afford the latest high MOI driver that keeps the ball in play, over the average Joe who's got a Great Big bertha from 10 years ago!

If the case is that an advantage is gained by a GPS user having exact yardage to the front, middle and back of the green (not to the pin as some people think), please don't forget that a non-GPS user can pace out the yardage to the nearest measured point that appears on his Strokesaver. This will take longer and may hold up play but you can still do it. So the question of yardage availability is answered.

So what advantage does the GPS user have?

The ability to quickly determine the relevent yardage. And yes this is an advantage. An advantage because I will not be pacing out to the 150 marker thereby holding up play, thereby having to rush the shot a bit more and not playing as well.

Why is this wrong???

Advantages and disadvantages are all around the course.You may play par 3's well. So on a par 3 you've got the advantage over me. On a 500 yard par 5 I've got an advantage because I can hit the green in 2 and you need 3 to get there. SO WHAT??????

Please don't take this last piece as an insult - it really isn't. But if all the "Not in Competition" brigade had their way we'd all still be playing with Gutta balls and Mashie Niblicks because any new technology that came along to help us out would have been strangled at birth

 

[Herbie]

Herb, in an effort to try and reduce the ding dong pro/con debate within this thread I responded direct to Brendy explaining my use of GPS but as you have just reiterated all the negatives that get me going I will respond here also.

It is not just because I have one that I think they should be allowed universally. The fact that the device just offers distance puzzles me as to why there is such a resistance to them. At the end of the day it is an electronically advanced strokesaver available to those who wish to spend the cash.

When I’m playing Opens at away courses where my handicap is at stake, I of course want every advantage available to me, including GPS. If a course has not approved the use then I respect that decision and leave it in the car. I don’t make issue of it. I find the GPS a real benefit, and whilst not lost without it, do miss not having it to help make my mind up.

My main reasoning promoting the use is all in information. Golf is meant to be a game where the rules and game (in most parts) is the same for Professionals and Amateurs alike. Where Pro’s will have a caddy to give them all the distance information they require amongst many other things, people who purchase GPS will have that information to hand. Those who have purchased a strokesaver will get a similar number after a few minutes pacing around the place. Rather than doing all the pacing about myself I have a digital Steve Williams with me who doesn’t open his gob and spout rubbish everywhere.

As long as these devices remain distance only, where is the issue? What does it matter if it's used in Competition?

If judging distance is all part of the skill why do the Pro’s rely on their caddy’s so much?

I'll finish with a quote from our bible (GM) who offer a perspective from the pace of play view

The evidence from our study was conclusive; GPS devices, when used by golfers familiar with them, have a positive effect on pace of play. Given that much of the info they provide is often available via course markings and yardage books, we have to ask why all clubs don't make them legal for competition play via the requisite Local Rule, and would urge the R&A to earmark them for the general rules in the next revision.

Thats a good response and an honest one, I do not have a dislike for gps or skycaddy, if people think I do then they would be wrong. I focus on the balance of fairness in their use in competition. There are locations where available data including caddy advice lacks an exacting figure, whereas with gps etc it becomes exact. nothing wrong with this but up until gps all data was available to all golfers in the comps either freely or included in entry fee,or able to purchase for a couple of quid. I refer to yardage charts/score saver. Gps is not available in the same way to all unless you invest a significant amount of cash. The fact that R&A have made a ruling leaving it up to individual clubs is just as much an indication of the R&As inability to decide on both arguments as it is and indication of their compromise, otherwise it would be simpler for R&A to rule that they are permissable full stop! why the half way house with R&A?

But at least you came up with an honest apraisal.

 

[backwoodsman]

Not every one has one. Correct; they don't, but that's not to say I shouldn't have one

Not everyone wants one. Fine; that's a choice to be made.

Not everyone can justify the cost. They really aren't expensive these days and are a modest investment. (In my case, a damn sight cheaper than a few months' supply of balls )

 

[Herbie]

The argument for not allowing GPS in Competitions doesn't really stand up.

If the case is that an advantage is gained only by those who can afford it, then surely there is an advantage to be had from being able to afford the latest high MOI driver that keeps the ball in play, over the average Joe who's got a Great Big bertha from 10 years ago!

If the case is that an advantage is gained by a GPS user having exact yardage to the front, middle and back of the green (not to the pin as some people think), please don't forget that a non-GPS user can pace out the yardage to the nearest measured point that appears on his Strokesaver. This will take longer and may hold up play but you can still do it. So the question of yardage availability is answered.

So what advantage does the GPS user have?

The ability to quickly determine the relevent yardage. And yes this is an advantage. An advantage because I will not be pacing out to the 150 marker thereby holding up play, thereby having to rush the shot a bit more and not playing as well.

Why is this wrong???

Advantages and disadvantages are all around the course.You may play par 3's well. So on a par 3 you've got the advantage over me. On a 500 yard par 5 I've got an advantage because I can hit the green in 2 and you need 3 to get there. SO WHAT??????

Please don't take this last piece as an insult - it really isn't. But if all the "Not in Competition" brigade had their way we'd all still be playing with Gutta balls and Mashie Niblicks because any new technology that came along to help us out would have been strangled at birth

First of all taking the comment that the advantage is only for those that can afford it is pretty demeaning to those who genuinely cannot and in fact has little to do with the reasoning.

Where golf clubs are concerned, that equipment requires the users ability. GPS does not, so that is an argument that does not stand up.

Caddy advice/pacing out/yardage charts/score savers are not always exact, in fact often wrong also certain locations on courses may be difficult to accurately judge in this way especially taking into accout the pace calculating in relationship to angle, whereas gps if programmed properly and used correctly is exact.

Advantages of ability are absolutely not related to a debate about an exacting aid, we may as well go back in time to the debates about 30 clubs in the bag???

A golfers ability to play the game is only relevant in the sense that if they know the exact distances they hit clubs they then have an advantage with gps exacting indications of distance.

As far as improving pace of play, I have yet to witness this as pace of play is determined by the number on the course,the difficulty of the course, the conditions and the pace of those ahead,not to mention that if the gps users in the field are having a bad day, they may be the ones holding things up and as not everyone has gps or SC how can the argument of improving the pace of play come into view?? Has a study been carried out giving everyone on the course this kit to see if it actually backs up this claim (which I have heard from many)? I doubt it?

Is it worth 300quid just to play faster when so often, and including these forums,golfers bemoan the faster players just as much as the slow players?

If that was your argument in favour then it doesnt really stand up does it?

 

[Herbie]

Not every one has one. Correct; they don't, but that's not to say I shouldn't have one

Not everyone wants one. Fine; that's a choice to be made.

Not everyone can justify the cost. They really aren't expensive these days and are a modest investment. (In my case, a damn sight cheaper than a few months' supply of balls )

err, get one then

 

[Cernunnos]

Every player has a right to know a yardage & the right to ask other players the yardage to any point without actually asking for actual playing advice.

Therefore whether standing by a convinient marker of some sort on the corse, or refering to a yardage book, or asking another player who happens to have a sat nav handy, or using a sat nav themselves, there is little difference.

Now someone pointed out that advice about what club to take would be against the rules other than from a caddy (there is more to the rule btw). I suppose someone is bound to argue that a skycaddie etc could be classed as exactly that, exept not one carrying the bag, after all what else is the electric trolley for... (rofl)

Someone else said its a players choice whether to accept advice from a caddy, or even of a yardage given. But isn't that also true of the GPS. Just because a the GPS might be giving information as to say a layup point yardage etc, its still up to the player whether or not to choose this option or whether to err on the side of caution or do any other course of action the player wishes to as to how to act on the yardage information given.

And a player will decide for himself what club is needed to account for yardage, wind he is aware of from indicators like movements of trees, flags, a damp finger or a few choice thrown blades of grass etc. The player is free to decide what visual cues to allow for their perception of say inclination & declination of a hill he may be playing up, down, or accross, or any other factor he or she may percieve or be aware of.

So even if a device could give a suggestion of what club to take bassed on yardage I really doubt I'd take much notice of that, as yardage alone does not take into account slope, or wind speed & no GPS will or can give any other information other than yardage, certainly not windspeed or slope, so any suggestion of club would almost be pointless other than as a starting point for the player to make up their mind as to what club to actually take & any player who knows the yardage that are capable of with each club, with different swings, will not need a club suggestion anyway. And the more, accurate yardages are available to all, whether as an owner of a GPS or playing with someone who does have a GPS, the more we can know our own yardages better & be able make club decisions more easily, at least in normal cucumsatnces.

 

[backwoodsman]

Err... I already have one.

Was just a riposte to the arguments

 

[Herbie]

I dont have a GPS system--Have used GPS at Valderrama some 4 yrs ago. It was a basic system which gave you distances to the front of the green only.
Personally it was a great aid knowing how far you had to the green but you still have to execute the shot.

They are no more an advantage than the golfer who has the best custom fitted golf clubs playing against a player with a mix & match set--The player must be able to hit the shots.

It matters less than you think, I dont have the top of the range kit, I did once and I never saw any advantage in play or score othyer than it improved when I went for cheap stuff. Golf clubs are permissable kit that golfers need to play the game, you dont need gps to play golf. If you can hit exactly 100 yds with a wedge of any kind and you know you are 100yds exactly from your target, then that is the issue, not whos got what!

 

[Leftie]

Round, and around, and around we go again .

I believe that distance measuing devices have been sanctioned for all EGU competitions this year.

Speaking to one of our "junior" pros, they are allowed in the comps they play.

Looking at courses already mapped, it would seem that soon, if not already, most clubs will sanction their use.

The R & A have approved their use at all clubs, subject to club's local ruling.

And, most importantly, their use does NOT GIVE THE USER ANY ADVANTAGE OVER THE NON USER who may have fairway yardage markers and/or a scoresaver to hand, or a pair of legs. Even if you are completely off line, there is absolutely no rule to stop you from pacing out whatever distance you want - over a hazard, to the green, lay up, or whatever, provided of course that you have the skill to reasonably accurately pace and are able to count. If you don't have the skill, perhaps you should consider one of these devices anyway.

It seems that the main bugbear is the use of these devices in amateur competions. If you are really competitive and try your damnest to win, then you will be happy to pace out every shot (assuming you can hit the ball correctly) as is your right, or use a DMD. No difference, other than the time to get round the course.

 

[viscount17]

Caddy advice/pacing out/yardage charts/score savers are not always exact, in fact often wrong also certain locations on courses may be difficult to accurately judge in this way especially taking into accout the pace calculating in relationship to angle, whereas gps if programmed properly and used correctly is exact.

herb, this to me seems to be the core of your argument - that the information available to those without gps may be less accurate.

This is not an issue for, nor the fault of, those who have GPS.

I could argue it is the fault of every golfer who has accepted an inaccurate and out of date shotsaver, who has removed and not replaced a marker because it was in his way, who has not held his greenkeeper to account for missing or misplaced markers.

GPS has just shown how bad some of this information is, might I suggest that you use GPS as evidence to campaign for accurate and up to date information.

(Of course, most clubs will then take the easy (cheap) option and allow GPS in comps!
Just so you know, mine doesn't, I have GPS, I'm not complaining)

 

[Cernunnos]

Afterall isn't this what our eyes are for to judge for our selves what a yardage is regardless of what a yardage/course guide may tell us. And GPS is also not always reliable. After all all depends upon how many satalites are being recieved at any one time.

 

[viscount17]

Afterall isn't this what our eyes are for to judge for our selves what a yardage is regardless of what a yardage/course guide may tell us. And GPS is also not always reliable. After all all depends upon how many satalites are being recieved at any one time.

GPS has shown that my estimate of distance (or my estimate of how far I hit my clubs) can be 1 or 2 clubs out, especially when estimating to the pin. That's the penalty of poor eyesight - or can I get everyone else to wear fogged glasses so we're on an equal footing?

 

[Cernunnos]

Afterall isn't this what our eyes are for to judge for our selves what a yardage is regardless of what a yardage/course guide may tell us. And GPS is also not always reliable. After all all depends upon how many satalites are being recieved at any one time.

GPS has shown that my estimate of distance (or my estimate of how far I hit my clubs) can be 1 or 2 clubs out, especially when estimating to the pin. That's the penalty of poor eyesight - or can I get everyone else to wear fogged glasses so we're on an equal footing?

Yes everyone is different. Though as it happens I'm very short sighted so really need the glasses or contacts I wear. But Experience on the course does give me at least a bit of trust in myself when I'm sure a yardage is wrong. Now very occasionally there are optical illusions that can try to confuse us, but with a little logic & use of everything we have at our command.

In other words, use our GPS, use our course guide. Notice any yardage markers & use our eyes, no matter how good, bad or indifferent.

Now I don't know whether anyone else does it but I do make a habit of when I say walk off a tee or pass a yardage marker on a long hole I am counting my paces, this takes no additional time at all, as you are not going anywhere else but from tee to ball, or from where you hit the ball to where you need to take the next shot. Who really needs to pace from ball to green when you know how far you've already come, unless its simply to get a better view of something unusual in our path

We've all been given at least 5 senses, some people may claim 6 or 7 lol. I supose common sens could be one of the additional.

As humans we've a brain in our heads & it really doesn't take much to bring in all the things we have at our disposal to work togather, no matter how fuzzy the picture, it can still work together with everything else.

If I took off my glasses I probably wouldn't find my ball but I'd still be able to get everthing to work together & still play.

 

[USER1999]

I still think the biggest gain in golf, if spending money (and time) is lessons. A £140 spend on a budget gps will not buy many lessons. Therefore, lessons should be free, and given to anyone who asks, such that there is a level playing field for all. In fact, in a comp, if you are drawn against someone who has had more lessons then you, h/caps should be adjusted, as this is an unfair advantage, given only to those rich in cash and time, who can afford lessons and practice.
And as for those of natural talent, they should have to have a hand cut off, or an eye poked out, as in my brave new slightly red (I can say this as I am postin from the PRC) world, being better than someone else is clearly wrong, as it leads to an unbalanced competition. The able can doers, against the perennially useless is not a fair fight.

My gps pales into insignificance as an advantage, when I am matched against a better golfer.

Especilly when he asks me for a yardage.

 

[haplesshacker]

Murph. You should be writing Labour party policies!! Especially for sports education for our kids!!

Just enjoy the golf for what it is - our recreation, relaxation and fun, and maybe a bit competitve. We're not getting paid to perform like the pros.

If I get asked by any playing partner for the GPS distance to the green, then I just let them know. I don't know if that is against the rules, but it only seemed fair. TBH though on the home track you know what club to take to get the ball where you want it anyway.

 

[DCB]

Is this still rumbling on ?

How about someone starting a Custom Fitting thread just to change the tune ?

 

[haplesshacker]

Is this still rumbling on ?

How about someone starting a Custom Fitting thread just to change the tune ?

As a new one for us weekend warriors this year. Should I get my balls custom fitted

 

[Imurg]

If you can hit exactly 100 yds with a wedge of any kind and you know you are 100yds exactly from your target, then that is the issue, not whos got what!

So how do you know you've got a hundred yards left?

I'll look at my SC
You can pace it.

Where's the difference?

The information is available it's just a different way of getting it.

 

[haplesshacker]

......and on, and on, and on........

Okay chaps, same time and place next month then

Sorry to be flippant, but I'm really worried about work, and this does seem a little too deep for me at the moment!

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Let me just say I have a feeling this thread will be coming to a well known golf mag near you very soon!