Declaring a ball lost

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But he can cause the original ball to be lost just by walking up to his provisional and playing it . Play it just once if it's nearer the hole than the original's likely location or more than once if the original is likely to be the nearer to the hole.

Indeed absolutely - my example implied original ball had been found within 5mins as player didn't want to take S&D.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In a comp a few weeks a go one of my FCs topped his tee shot from very elevated tee with loads of clag on the downslope before the fairway. As the position of the ball entering the clag was out of sight beneath us mt FC played a provisional - which he nailed miles down the middle. We started looking for his original ball but it was a lost cause - until approx 4'58" after we started looking I found it. Now my dear FC should have take S&D and gone back up to the tee (less than 50 yds back). But he didn't. Somewhat irritated that I'd found his ball in a horrid lie (deep rough and almost out of sight) and with his provisional perfect - he tried to play it. And of course he hacked and hacked and hacked and ended up with a 9.

Silence punctuated by harumphs from my FC as we walked down the fairway - but he smiled as we left the green knowing he'd got his game management totally wrong. And as he said - if he hadn't hit such a good provisional on a difficult tee shot he'd have thought more carefully about what he was doing.

 

[North Mimms]

In a comp a few weeks a go one of my FCs topped his tee shot from very elevated tee with loads of clag on the downslope before the fairway. As the position of the ball entering the clag was out of sight beneath us mt FC played a provisional - which he nailed miles down the middle. We started looking for his original ball but it was a lost cause - until approx 4'58" after we started looking I found it. Now my dear FC should have take S&D and gone back up to the tee (less than 50 yds back). But he didn't. Somewhat irritated that I'd found his ball in a horrid lie (deep rough and almost out of sight) and with his provisional perfect - he tried to play it. And of course he hacked and hacked and hacked and ended up with a 9.

Silence punctuated by harumphs from my FC as we walked down the fairway - but he smiled as we left the green knowing he'd got his game management totally wrong. And as he said - if he hadn't hit such a good provisional on a difficult tee shot he'd have thought more carefully about what he was doing.

I think it's fairly typical that we often don't think about taking S&D unless there is no other option, like ball OOB.

I've done the same, trying to hack something out, rather than taking my medicine and walking back.
Of course, once you've had the first unsucessful hack, the option for useful S&D has gone!

 

[delc]

I think it's fairly typical that we often don't think about taking S&D unless there is no other option, like ball OOB.

I've done the same, trying to hack something out, rather than taking my medicine and walking back.
Of course, once you've had the first unsucessful hack, the option for useful S&D has gone!

Kevin Na found this out the hard way on the PGA Tour a while back, when he took 16 on a Par-4 hole after slicing his tee shot into a wood. See:

http://www.pga.com/kevin-na-sets-pg...ore-par-4-hole-cink-and-henry-lead-texas-open

 

[duncan mackie]

Interesting read this. I was sure that you only had to report things to the committee if the score with each ball was different. Did a bit of digging and found that the 2000-2004 rule said......
"The competitor shall report the facts to the Committee before returning his score card unless he scores the same with both balls; if he fails to do so, he shall be disqualified."
......any idea why this was changed? Seems to be overkill if the scores were the same but there must be some reasoning behind it and I would certainly have misquoted this on the course over the last 10 years. Subtle change but one that could lead to DQ so quite a serious one.

sorry I can't help. 2004 edition was hailed as the most comprehensive revision of the Rules of golf for twenty years and had a lot of less subtle changes to be absorbed (and, highly relevant to this thread for a change, a corker of a screw up re lost ball definitions that was reversed out in the 2008 edition).

if I was to hazard a guess it would revolve around the concern that if 3-3 was required at all it would be possible that neither ball was played in accordance with the rules! (but this may be a little harsh..... )

 

[Pro Zach]

It appears delc knew his second ball was the ball in play. Rule 3-3 states if a competitor is doubtful of his rights etc.... it does not say you can use it to appease the doubts of a FC to ensure he'll sign your card.

Therefore when he played the ball that was no longer in play he was practising on the course. The penalty for which is being tied up by his dangly bits and thrashed with stinging nettles.

Of course I suspect this could be wrong, especially the penalty.

 

[delc]

It was essentially a doubt on how to proceed, even if I knew I was right. Hence I invoked Rule 3-3 and put it to the club committee to decide when I submitted my card, and they agreed with my interpretation of the rules. Please quote the rule that shows the penalty you suggest? oo:

 

[Pro Zach]

It was essentially a doubt on how to proceed, even if I knew I was right. Hence I invoked Rule 3-3 and put it to the club committee to decide when I submitted my card, and they agreed with my interpretation of the rules. Please quote the rule that shows the penalty you suggest? oo:

So you knew the ball on the green was the ball in play but you had doubts on how to proceed. Had you never been in that position before?

 

[Colin L]

It appears delc knew his second ball was the ball in play. Rule 3-3 states if a competitor is doubtful of his rights etc.... it does not say you can use it to appease the doubts of a FC to ensure he'll sign your card.

Therefore when he played the ball that was no longer in play he was practising on the course. The penalty for which is being tied up by his dangly bits and thrashed with stinging nettles.

Of course I suspect this could be wrong, especially the penalty.

You could just be right

@Del
Now that you are confirming that you invoked Rule 3-3, which wasn't at all clear before, can you tell us at what point you declared this intention? Before or after your splendid charge up the fairway to hole your second ball?

 

[delc]

So you knew the ball on the green was the ball in play but you had doubts on how to proceed. Had you never been in that position before?

Actually no! However my FCs were both absolutely adamant that I had to play the original ball, and as one of them was my marker, I felt that I had no alternative other than invoking rule 3-3 and putting it to the committee afterwards.

 

[atticusfinch]

So it was their doubt, not yours, that led to 3-3?

If you know what rule applies to your situation and how to proceed, you have no doubt. If others think you are wrong they can file a claim.

 

[delc]

So it was their doubt, not yours, that led to 3-3?

If you know what rule applies to your situation and how to proceed, you have no doubt. If others think you are wrong they can file a claim.

Absolutely the case. Like many players they seemed to believe that a second ball put into play is automatically a provisional ball, even though I had not declared it as being so. As I said in my original posting I honestly thought that my original ball had gone well out of bounds, so there was no point in saying that I was playing a provisional ball.

 

[North Mimms]

Absolutely the case. Like many players they seemed to believe that a second ball put into play is automatically a provisional ball, even though I had not declared it as being so. As I said in my original posting I honestly thought that my original ball had gone well out of bounds, so there was no point in saying that I was playing a provisional ball.

If I am playing a provisional, i declare it before playing (as required by the rules)

If I am intending to play 3 off the tee / take S&D / not a provisional, I declare it as "Not a provisional" (not required by rules but saves no end of aggro!)

 

[chellie]

Apologies, as I'm being dense I am sure.

Taking this from the link posted do you have to say anything to your FC before you do this. Example, my FC on Thursday hit her tee shot into the rubbish but her provisional was one of her best drives of the day. Do you just walk past where you ball is likely to be and say you're not going to look for it then go down the fairway to hit what was your provisional.

Say a player hits his tee-shot into the trees and so he correctly plays a provisional ball which comes to rest next to the hole. Must the player look for his original ball?No. It is up to the player if he wants to look for his ball or not. If the player walks directly to the provisional ball and plays it, as the provisional ball is nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be, play of the provisional ball renders the original ball lost.

 

[atticusfinch]

You do not have to look for your original, but if it is found you have to play it. ( rule 28 nothwithstanding.)

 

[North Mimms]

Apologies, as I'm being dense I am sure.

Taking this from the link posted do you have to say anything to your FC before you do this. Example, my FC on Thursday hit her tee shot into the rubbish but her provisional was one of her best drives of the day. Do you just walk past where you ball is likely to be and say you're not going to look for it then go down the fairway to hit what was your provisional.

Say a player hits his tee-shot into the trees and so he correctly plays a provisional ball which comes to rest next to the hole. Must the player look for his original ball?No. It is up to the player if he wants to look for his ball or not. If the player walks directly to the provisional ball and plays it, as the provisional ball is nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be, play of the provisional ball renders the original ball lost.

It's always useful to tell your FC what you are doing in such cases, if only to avoid all the mess described in many instances above!
Highlighted in your post- it's not what you say that renders the ball lost, it's what you do

 

[Colin L]

There is nothing in the Rules that obliges you to say anything. You can just walk on and play your provisional. But if someone finds a ball before you have played the provisional, you are obliged to go and identify it and, if it is yours, you must play it. It is wise therefore to let your FCs know that you don't want to search. Good sense but not obligatory.

 

[chellie]

So the best thing to do would be to run down the fairway and hit the provisional ball before your FC finds your original if they go and look for it.

 

[Colin L]

Well yes, but I think the normal convention in stroke play is that if someone says they aren't going to look for their original ball, his FCs respect that and don't go a-huntin'.

 

[duncan mackie]

So the best thing to do would be to run down the fairway and hit the provisional ball before your FC finds your original if they go and look for it.

...not forgetting that this has to be from a point nearer the hole that the original ball is believed to be to make the original ball a lost ball...